Jul 232011
 

Photo Credit: Yael Beri via Flicker

The other day, as I was catching up on my vaccines Google Alert, I ran across a blog entry titled The Worst Things People Say About Unvaccinated Kids over at a website called Babble. In this article, the author lists what she considers to be the 5 worst things other people, presumably parents of vaccinated children, say about unvaccinated children, and she   provides rebuttals to these assertions.

I am a bit torn about how to properly respond to this entry, as there is some truth to what the author says. For example , she points out that being told that ” I’m a bad parent, I will not be persuaded to see things your way.” This is true. Most parents who have chosen not to vaccinate their kids, whom I have had a chance to have any sort of meaningful interaction with, are not bad parents, but precisely the opposite is true. It is out of what they consider justified caution that they choose not to vaccinate. They are wrong in their analysis of the pros and cons of vaccines, but that does no make them bad parents. And, if your goal is to persuade them to analyze the issue properly, offending them by calling them stupid, idiots, or bad parents is not the way to go. Everyone makes wrong decisions, you and I included. So a little bit of civility and giving the other person the benefit of the doubt is called for, I think.

Having said that, let us look at her list in detail, as these thoughts, in my opinion, are something that a lot of anti-vaccine parents share.

1) “You better keep your unvaccinated kid away from mine because I don’t want mine to get sick!” — You do realize that in order for my child to get yours sick, my child would have to…actually be sick?  In that regard, only children who are actually ill can pass along illness.  It does not matter if a child was vaccinated or not, if a child is sick, then the child can pass along the illness.  Unvaccinated children aren’t magical disease-carriers.  In fact, many are rarely sick.  If they are, they’ll stay home!  It’s just not a good argument, because anyone *can* catch an illness, and unvaccinated kids aren’t extra-special in this regard, especially not when it comes to general mingling with society.

If they are sick, they’ll stay home! Simply put that’s a bit naive. Whooping cough looks just like a simple cold in the beginning, and severe symptoms don’t start until 10-12 days after. How many parents will immediately isolate their children just because they have a bit of cough? The answer is: not many. In the mean time, these kids are contagious, and commingling with other children, way before the symptoms get severe enough, and way before a diagnosis of whooping cough is made.  A person sick with measles is contagious 4 days before the typical measles rash appears. Measles typically starts as a mild illness with a runny nose and mild temperature. It is simply not true that parents immediately isolate their child the moment she has a runny nose, or a sore throat. Again, sick children are very likely to be contagious and in contact with other children, way before the sickness is evident, or severe enough, for them to be kept home.

It is a fact that vaccines are very good at protecting against infectious disease. It is a fact that a vaccinated person has much lower chances than an unvaccinated person of catching the disease they were vaccinated against. It is a fact that unvaccinated people are much more likely, by orders of magnitude I would say, to catch and spread a disease. One need look no further than the recent measles outbreaks in the U.S. which were mostly traced back to unvaccinated people, even though, if you look at the population as a whole, the people unvaccinated against measles make up only a small portion.

The Minnesota measles outbreak affected 21 people at least, of which at least 17 cases were directly related to the one unvaccinated child who imported the disease from overseas. That’s over 85% of the outbreak directly related to the one unvaccinated child, if you count the unvaccinated child too.

Saying that unvaccinated children are just as harmless as vaccinated children is clearly wrong. Yes everyone *can* catch an illness, but the chances vary widely. Anyone *can* catch HIV, however a person who has unsafe sex, shares needles etc its at a much higher risk than a person who doesn’t. The author is missing this crucial distinction, in an effort I think to avoid facing the responsibility that the choice not to vaccinate one’s child carries. You can choose not to vaccinate, but you cannot rid yourself of the responsibility that your choice carries.

2) “But the greater good…!” — Nope.  If there’s something out there that’s “for the greater good” and promises absolutely no harm to my child, guaranteed, sure, I’ll do it.  But vaccines come with their own set of risks, and parents must be willing to accept them.  And since unvaccinated kids aren’t disease-carriers (see point #1), it really isn’t that big a deal anyway.

This is a classic anti-vaccine point. There’s so many assumptions going into making this statement that I cannot possibly address them all in this entry. First, let’s say that at the very least the author expresses a complete disregard for other human beings, a complete disregard for children that cannot get vaccinated because of medical issues, who have to rely on other kids being vaccinated for limited protection. This sort of selfish attitude is not completely illogical however, but when taking into account the benefit to the child herself first, and the rest of society second, it is illogical, not to say a bit hypocritical, considering that, knowingly or not, the anti-vaccine parent herself is relying on herd immunity, or “the greater good”, to protect her child.

Secondly, she demands that she’ll only consider doing something for the greater good if it is absolutely, 100% harmless to her child, which is not unreasonable either. I will not harm my child to save another, and we cannot ask that parents put their children in harm’s way for the sake of others. The interesting thing here is that by not vaccinating her child, she is putting her at greater risk than the small vaccine risks which she demands to be zero. This is classic tunnel vision, missing the proverbial forest for a tree.

We do not ask that children be vaccinated solely to protect others, and it would be wrong if that was the case.We ask that children be vaccinated so, first and foremost, they would be protected. Any benefits to society are secondary, but are not in and off themselves a good enough reason to demand vaccination of a child. If a parent cannot be persuaded to vaccinate their child for the child’s sake, this sort of “greater good” argument stands no chance. Although, to be sure, as long as I’ve been interested in this issue I’ve not come across the demand that parents ought to vaccinate their children solely for the purpose of protecting others.

3) “Your child will die of the measles or another preventable illness!” — Highly unlikely, and not because of vaccines!  Let’s suppose my child does catch the measles.  The primary reason for complications/death from measles, according to the WHO, is vitamin A deficiency.  In fact, the WHO recommends immediate vitamin A supplementation in areas where children frequently catch measles and aren’t vaccinated.  My children aren’t deficient in vitamin A, and if they were, could easily be supplemented.  Knowing the position of the WHO and why people do die in third-world countries eases my mind, because that is just not an issue here.  (Along with poor nutrition and sanitation causing complications, also not an issue here.)

This is otherwise known as burying your head in the sand and refusing to acknowledge statistics. Even in developed countries such as the U.S. about one out of 1,000 children with measles will get encephalitis (a dangerous inflammation of the brain), and one or two out of 1,000 will die. To put that into perspective, if 1,000 children of parents that think along the lines of the author were to catch measles, 1 or 2 pairs of those parents would find out the hard way, how wrong their simple, two-line analysis was. Just recently I posted a video of just such a parent.

Measles is highly contagious. 90% of children with no immunity will get sick if exposed. On the flip side, the MMR vaccine is 95% effective at preventing measles. Saying that vaccines do not dramatically reduce the risk of catching measles is simply ignorant of the facts.

I am glad she chooses to rely on a WHO position paper, as the WHO is a reliable source. However, she makes the classic mistake of “cherry picking” as in the same paper, the WHO clearly states that:

Measles is an extremely contagious viral disease that, before the widespread use of measles vaccine, affected almost every child in the world.

This directly contradicts her first sentence.

High-risk groups for measles complications include infants and persons suffering from chronic diseases and impaired immunity, or from severe malnutrition, including vitamin A deficiency.

This contradicts what she says in her second sentence. Vitamin A deficiency has not been identified as “the primary reason” for complications, but just as one of a few that put people in high risk groups. Another reason mentioned here is “impaired immunity”. Does she know for sure that her children don’t have impaired immunity?

The live, attenuated measles vaccines that are now internationally available are safe, effective and relatively inexpensive and may be used interchangeably in immunization programmes.

I will never cease to be amazed how people will quote a part of a sentence from a source that actually maintains the complete oposite position from the one they are trying to support with their cherry picking.

4) “You don’t love your children!” — This is just a rude thing to say!  Every parent loves his/her children, and makes what s/he believes to be the best choices.  You may disagree and that’s your right, but it is absolutely wrong to say that a parent doesn’t love their child.

She’s absolutely right here. I don’t think many people who are genuinely interested in dialogue will utter those words,but anyone who does has clearly removed himself from the arena of rational, civilized dialogue. When it comes to anti-vaccine proponents my rule of thumb is: doubt their reasoning, not their intentions.

5) “If you don’t vaccinate, your kid can’t go to school!” — False!  In 48 states there are medical exemptions, in most religious exemptions, and in about half, philosophical exemptions.  Yes, you can use them for college, too.  Basically you just have to fill them out and your kids can attend public school, without any vaccines at all.  This is a scare tactic that schools and doctors use to get reluctant parents to vaccinate, and it is a lie.  (All of you who are afraid of your kids going to school with unvaccinated children…they probably already do!)

Also true. While you are required to provide proof that your child is up to date, all states allow exemptions for medical reasons, and almost all allow for religious reasons.  Parents have the choice to seek an exemption if they do not want to vaccinate, however, as I have pointed out before, if their child catches the disease and ends up sickening other kids, those parents have to be held responsible, because they willingly choose to put the community at risk.

Conclusion

The article I reviewed here gives us a glimpse into the anti-vaxxer’s mind. It is my opinion that most anti-vaccine proponents share a few charachteristics which include the following:

  • They have convinced themselves that the diseases are harmless, or at the very least that the risk from the disease is much less than the risk from the vaccines.
  • They believe their children are no more likely to catch and spread a disease than vaccinated children.
  • They believe incidence has decreased independent of vaccines.
  • They think that the statistics about the dangers presented by vaccine-preventable diseases are nothing more than fear-mongering.
  • They believe vaccines do not work at preventing these diseases.

These beliefs are wrong and not supported by evidence, however it is clear to see that once one accepts these premises as true, the decision not to vaccinate does follow logically. Their conclusion is wrong, as they are starting with the wrong premises, but they are not stupid or idiots, at least the majority aren’t. They are in most cases just as intelligent, if not more intelligent and educated, than the average person. The only difference between anti-vaccine proponents and pro-healthers is the required standard of evidence. If you really look at it, all disagreements boil down to one question: “What is to be considered acceptable evidence?”

This unfortunately means that it is highly unlikely, if not impossible, to change the mind of an anti-vaccine believer, since in order to do that, you’d have to completely change how they assign weight to evidence, akin to trying to convince a religious person to become an atheist on the basis of rational arguments.

And that is something you and I may not be able to do in the vast majority of cases.

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  318 Responses to “The worst misconceptions parents of some unvaccinated children hold”

  1. WRT the first point – many conditions, including measles and influenza, are infectious before any symptoms arise, not just from the start of the mild symptoms that precede more serious illness.

  2. Regarding the first point, what appears to be missing is that a vaccinated child is far, far less likely to contract the illness than an unvaccinated one, which means that a child who has been vaccinated has little to fear from a child who hasn’t. A child who can’t be vaccinated (yet) such as an infant too young to get the shots, or a child undergoing cancer treatment, is the one who depends on herd immunity.

    Similar issue with point 5. Those children who’ve had all their shots on time don’t need to worry about going to school with unvaccinated kids. The ones with medical contraindications to vaccines are put in danger by increasing numbers of other children not having their shots.

    • Similar issue with point 5. Those children who’ve had all their shots on time don’t need to worry about going to school with unvaccinated kids.

      That’s not entirely true. Like the article said, the MMR vaccine is 95% effective against measles, so if an unvaccinated child with measles exposes his class of 20 vaccinated classmates, the odds are that one will catch the disease.

      • It is important for you all to get it through your thick heads that it is not the vaccines but the aborted fetal parts, radiator fluid, thimerisol, antifreeze, aluminum, do I need to go on? For once look at big Pharma business model. They sell the vaccine using aborted fetal parts (this means government paid for product) customer (patient) pays for shot, tax on the shot goes to vaccine injury relief fund (this means if there is a claim of “injury” big pharma cannot be sued). In fact, deep in the Patriot Act of 2003 in the dead of midnight our government added this little gem to ensure big pharma gets away with, whatever.

        • Citation needed.

          And do tell us which vaccine on the American pediatric schedule is only available with thimerosal. Do not mention influenza, since four of the eight approved for children do not contain thimerosal.

          • I don’t know about the other ingredients mentioned above such as Thermisol. But I did read the package insert from Merck, available via the link provided on this site. The MMR II does contain the foetal bovine serum.

            As I understand it this is harvested from the foetus with the minimal risk of catching any other part of the foetus. Of course it does seem implausible that one could avoid all risk of catching other parts of the foetus.

            What is your opinion on this ingredient? Could there not be a negative implication when it comes to injecting bovine cardiac serum into the human blood stream? In your opinion I mean? I just learned about this today and I will look into it further. As ever, there is a minefield of information out there to sift through.

          • Only if you are vegan and don’t drink milk. It must be really bad to have been a diabetic who had to get insulin produced by cows if you think animal products are bad (there is another process using either yeast or bacteria to get insulin).

            And the real issues is relative risk. If you think that particular animal product is bad, then you need to produce the PubMed indexed study showing it has ill effects, not the thought that it is just “yucky.”

            And the subject was thimerosal, so please do not change the subject in your replies.

          • I thought they got the insulin from pigs, but the GMO e-coli we use now is much better (something tells me the anti-vaccine people wouldn’t like that).

          • Originally it was dogs, but both cows and pigs were used. I think pigs mostly because they were more abundant. Read Breakthrough: Elizabeth Hughes, the Discovery of Insulin, and the Making of a Medical Miracle.

            I hate to think of what someone who is frightened of “bovine serum” would think about the hormones extracted from horse urine. It is often the “yuck” factor, but the proteins and other chemicals extracted from animals are often purified. Heaven forbid on what goes into my organic garden: bone meal, blood meal, composted manure and a fertilizer from fish.. all in soil made of minerals that contain aluminum!

            Which is why we need actual evidence of harm from the vaccine versus the disease and not scaremongering on the source of the ingredients.

          • Well Chris, I was asking your opinion on injecting animal foetus into one’s blood stream, and you haven’t given it. I also never said it was yucky.

            There are many studies linking animal products to disease, but I didn’t make that point in my answer.

          • Chris I asked your opinion on the possible effects of injecting foetus cardiac fluid into one’s bloodstream. YOu haven’t given it.

            I also never said anything was yucky. I never gave my view on animal products. There are numerous studies linking meat to disease, namely cancer. Citation needed yes. But whether I give a citation or not, they exist.

            So regardless of that, which I never broached, what is your opinion if you have one?

          • “Chris I asked your opinion on the possible effects of injecting foetus cardiac fluid into one’s bloodstream.”

            Well, for one thing: it is not ever injected into the bloodstream. No pediatric vaccine is administered intravenously.

            My opinion is not important, it is the science that is important. And the science says that it is much safer to get the MMR vaccine than to get measles. If you have a PubMed indexed study from a reliable reputable researcher to the contrary, please present that. Do not prevaricate on one ingredient unless you have the evidence to support your claims.

          • Subcutaneous injection still bypasses the stomach acid, there could be some implication there as to how the substance is absorbed. I will have to look into it. Thank you for your discussions with me, you have been somewhat helpful. LJ.

          • “Subcutaneous injection still bypasses the stomach acid”

            So does inhaling, which is how measles, mumps, rubella, influenza, diphtheria, pertussis and a few other diseases are transmitted. There is an influenza vaccine given nasally, and I read that others are being developed for measles, etc.

            Also, tetanus is caused by wound entry, which also bypasses the stomach. Yellow fever, Japanese encephalitis, dengue and malaria are transmitted by mosquitoes. There are vaccines for the first two, and research ongoing for the latter two. Oddly enough, there was an announcement of malaria vaccine that is given intravenously, which is very difficult to do where malaria is endemic.

            The diseases that are contracted orally are rotavirus, polio, cholera, typhoid and a couple of others. Those have mostly been taken care by sanitation, except for polio and rotavirus. The rotavirus vaccine is given orally.

            Polio actually increased with better sanitation because it was out in the “wild.” Kids usually received polio immunity from their mothers for a short time as babies, but being exposed later in lakes etc, were infected. There was (and is) a fairly effective oral polio vaccine (OPV), but it tended to revert to its wild state in the gut and ended up in the sewer/wild. They switched to the slightly less effective but much safer IPV when there were too many cases of polio caused by OPV (again look up the work John Salamone did to change American vaccine schedule).

            A virologist at Columbia University did much of his career researching polio, and does not think it can be eradicated with the OPV. He has a podcast, and has written about it on his blog:
            http://www.virology.ws/?s=polio

            References:

            Polio: An American Story by David M. Oshinsky

            Deadly Choices, The Cutter Incident and Vaccinated by Paul Offit

            The American Plague by Molly Caldwell Crosby

            The Complete Idiot’s Guide to Dangerous Diseases & Epidemics by David Perlin and Ann Cohen (and yes, I own this book, I bought it a used book store)

        • This is one of the most erronious posts I have ever read on this subject. Most of the things you listed as ingredients are not in the vaccines. Thimerasol has been cut down to a mere fraction of what it once was, and is used far in far less vaccines than in the past as well. I have no idea what your sources are, but I would love to see them. I base my statement on more than 24 years in the medical field.
          Michael

          • Aluminum, MSG, Polysorbite-80, Formeldihyde, Fetal Parts…these are the ingredients listed on the vaccine packages by the manufacturers themselves!!
            Polysorbite-80 bonds to other ingredients in the vaccine to allow them to cross the Brain Barrier. They use this chemical in chemo to help the body absorb the medicine where in normally wouldn’t.
            Aluminum can be confused with Iron so the body will allow it tp pass in certain areas of the brain. It acts as a gateway for the other ingredients as well.
            No one can honestly say that vaccine reactions are rare and/ or not severe.

          • “Polysorbite-80″: so you hate ice cream?

            “Aluminum”: where do you get food grown in aluminum free soil (hint: it is a major component of the soil)

            MSG: so you also hate Chinese food? There is no way to satisfy you guys!

            Formaldehyde: So how do propose to remove the much more abundant quantities of that created in a human body from normal cell metabolism? And are you going stop feeding kids fruit and veggies because they also have formaldehyde?

            Fetal Parts: I guess you are not going to have an egg omelet for breakfast.

            Ms. Vadella, you really need to try harder than posting scary words on a random blog. You actually have to find the real evidence that the vaccines are worse than the diseases. Do tell us what vaccine ingredient is worse than tetanospasmin which is the central figure of this story:
            ‘It was hideous’ – family’s tetanus agony.

        • “Fetal parts”… my word.

          Viruses need to be grown in large numbers to produce the vaccine, and viruses can only replicate inside cells. Since the measles, mumps, rubella and chicken pox viruses grow quite well inside the human body, the virus is allowed to replicate in human cell cultures. These human cells (named MRC5 and WI38) come from the tissue of two fetuses that were aborted in the 1960s. The cells are destroyed to release the viruses growing within, and the viruses are purifed to remove as much cell debris as possible. Out of curiosity, what do you think the fetal tissue can actually do in the worst-case scenario? If it’s the DNA you’re worried about, how do you go with eating plant and animal matter?

          As a side note on any ethical concerns:
          The abortions were performed at the request of the pregnant women, not to acquire cells for culture, and the viruses were later found to grow best in those cell lines (it could as easily have been cells derived from tissue gained from a rhinoplasty or knee reconstruction). Even the Catholic Church decided that although an alternative vaccine which didn’t use cells derived from aborted fetal tissue would be preferable, the ethical implications for the end user are minimal and the fact that vaccination saves lives outweighs the moral complication.

          • This is all very interesting, and I have said before in my comments that I’m not currently on one side or the other (but until I am I am default accepting of vaccines) – so I’m here to learn more.

            I see this discussion going on about whether it’s okay to have these ingredients in vaccines; the only one I can confirm being in there to my own knowledge is the foetal parts (from the Merck MMR II package insert linked on this site, to the right under Vaccine Package Inserts) – though it states calf foetus harvested newly from commercial farming, not from the two foetuses from the ‘60s, interestingly. I had heard about those two foetuses too, but no apparently it’s a fresh harvest every time from a live calf foetus (which I’m not taking issue with here).

            My question is around this retort of “well what about eating ice cream? What about eating meat? What about eating Chinese food?” – I don’t see how this is valid, because isn’t it a very different thing to be ingesting something through the gastrointestinal system and ingesting it into the blood stream? Or am I wrong? Doesn’t that have very different implications, for instance with regard to the blood brain barrier?

            So while you are asking what the issue is with this poster’s consuming foetal tissue (i.e. in eggs), isn’t that a very different thing to having it injected?

            Thanks for your input. Laura.

        • Most people dont understand, or are blind sighted about this, even so called medical staff. Ive worked in a hospital for the past 3 years. I testify to the fact that todays doctors know nothing. They just follow the orders or the Mr’s etc (senior staff), and these follow the instructions (procedures) of the in-house pharmacy.

          There is no ‘healing’ these days, its just dose after dose of legal drugs without ever seeking deeper reasons to why someone is sick (like looking into their lifestyle / stress etc). Their reasons follows: Sick person –> consult Dr, confirms from Dr who consults another Dr and in circles they go –> giving drugs and more drugs is ever the only answer. Then they kick them out before they are ready (well).

          Just google this: glaxosmithkline sued about drug safety and you will learn of the lies they preached to the masses. unsafe drugs, failed tested drugs etc…

          People have stopped thinking for themselves. They simply believe in the Dr’s and pharmacies as ‘loving’ caring etc people with no agenda. ($$$$$$$$$$$) then make billions. This of course is becasue people simply remember the ‘good ole days’ when pharmacies build real drugs from real plants and herbs, and Dr’s really wanted to help, not just fill their pockets.

          Of coarse there are very good Dr’s still. people just need to think for themselves, instead of being told what to think (even for medical staff –think think think, test everything you study! reason with it, judge it.. think think think.)

          In the end, people must make up their own minds, as its the parents who have to live with the decision they make!

          • No, we will not “Google” anything. If you make a claim, then you must provide the evidence to support that claim.

            For one thing, vaccines are not to “heal”, they are to prevent an illness. Learn the difference. If you are making a claim that the reason vaccines exist are to only make money, they you need to provide the verifiable evidence that it is cheaper to treat the diseases instead of preventing them.

            At the present there is a measles outbreak in Wales with almost a thousand cases. More than eighty of those cases have required hospital treatment, almost one in ten. Measles is so contagious that without the MMR vaccine every child would get it, and about one in ten would require hospital care (most common reason is for pneumonia from measles, each day in a hospital is thousands of dollars).

            Now tell us how providing each child two doses of an MMR vaccine is more costly than treating one out of ten in the hospital. Here are some examples of the kind of citations we expect in your answer:

            Arch Pediatr Adolesc Med. 2005;159:1136-1144.
            Economic Evaluation of the 7-Vaccine Routine Childhood Immunization Schedule in the United States, 2001

            J Infect Dis. 2004 May 1;189 Suppl 1:S131-45.
            An economic analysis of the current universal 2-dose measles-mumps-rubella vaccination program in the United States.

            West J Med. 1996 Jul-Aug;165(1-2):20-5.
            Pediatric hospital admissions for measles. Lessons from the 1990 epidemic.

            The last one includes the cost to the state of California’s taxpayer supported health care system for low income residents: “The average hospital admission cost was $8,201, and the average length of hospital stay was 4.6 days. Hospital costs amounted to $18 million, two thirds of which was paid for by Medi-Cal.”

            Now, Andy, explain to us exactly how not vaccinating will save money with actual verifiable citations, not random “google searches.”

          • I must say that some of the points made by those against vaccines are rather poorly written and thus their points are not put across well.

            This type of discussion here, about the money to be made via vaccinating vs. not vaccinating, is not a medical discussion at all. This digresses into politics. There is politics in this issue of course, the motives of the pharmaceutical industry are questionable. The topic of corporate crime in the pharmaceutical industry is discussed very well in Braithwaites book Crime in the Pharmaceutical Industry, which can be read in its entirety here: http://www.ivantic.net/Ostale_knjiige/Zdravlje/Braithwaite-John-Corporate-Crime-in-the-Pharmaceutical-Industry.pdf

            Personally I’m not here to discuss this topic as I already have an opinion on that – I came into contact with the issues around the politics of the industry and of reporting during my first degree in Politics and Criminology. I am here to discuss and learn about something I have no formal training in; the pharmacological reactions of vaccines within the human body.

            I do think however, for the sake of completion, that this discussion should be elaborated on and clarified a bit, so that it can be moved on from in a sufficient way. So I offer my point of view on what people really mean when they talk about the implications of money in this issue, and that is that one would have to examine the intricacies of the corporate industries involved in vaccine production and propagation. It is not that there is less of a burden on taxpayers without vaccines. It is that the companies that produce the vaccines have more political ties than they would like people to know about.

            I believe the poster is referring to price fixing within the pharmaceutical industry – something which is commonplace rather than rare. But I think a more potent issue is the profit to be made not from setting company off against company; like against like i.e. infighting between drug companies. Rather it is to do with the ties said companies have to the manufacture of vaccines to governments who might have other agendas. The argument I’m going into here would be around governments manufacturing a perpetually sick population in order to then sell vaccines to the medical industry from the pharmaceutical industry and then to take some of the profit received therein because they are all part of the same entity.

            That is a whole other minefield of research and some of what is in that field is true and some of it is insane ranting. But I am sure we are all aware that that field is there.

            What is true from that field is that there are big companies which have strong links to governments and cohort to profit from things such as third world instability for one instance. An example there would be the harvesting of natural resource metals from the Congo to use in western technology, and the murder of Patrice Lumumba to ensure the continuation of this practice.

            I just wanted to add that because I think that is the avenue the original poster was trying to go down, and if he wasn’t aware he was, then that is the real avenue that talking about profit from vaccines goes down, it’s nothing to do with the surface idea that one is more of a drain on our taxes than the other.

            I would like to end with this; I do believe that any intelligent person possessing a functioning human brain is able to understand any topic if it is explained well. I therefore see no reason why those here in the medical profession, with no specific academic education should be able to comprehend the political implications behind pharmaceutical companies. I don’t think any of think they are intrinsically altruistic companies. I also believe that someone without a medical education is able to understand a medical issue based on the same principle. So let’s all stop compartmentalising our understanding of this world, and realise that things are far more intertwined, and try to understand this world for what it is, a whole rather than a collection of parts.

          • This was the question: “Now tell us how providing each child two doses of an MMR vaccine is more costly than treating one out of ten in the hospital. Here are some examples of the kind of citations we expect in your answer”

            Now look at the citations. You can get online copies of those papers from http://www.pubmed.gov and using the search window.

            A 400+ page pdf from 1984 that essentially says “Big Pharma” is bad is not evidence that letting kids get measles, where about one in ten get hospitalized and one in 1000 either die or get permanent disability, is more cost effective than giving each child two MMR vaccines.

            Before the measles vaccines were introduced in 1963 over 90% of children got measles before their fifteenth birthday. In the USA hundreds died each year, and thousands more became permanently disabled with things like blindness, deafness, mental retardation, paralysis, etc. How do you keep Big Pharma from profiting when about one in ten child ends up in hospital? Because Big Pharma also makes the antibiotics for the opportunistic bacterial pneumonia that is the most common reason for hospital care. Then there is all of the respiratory support equipment, and on and on.

            So, again, where it the evidence that providing two MMR vaccines to children is so much a money maker for Big Pharma than letting measles back into childhood?

          • This was the question: “Now tell us how providing each child two doses of an MMR vaccine is more costly than treating one out of ten in the hospital. Here are some examples of the kind of citations we expect in your answer”

            – And I was explaining that that wasn’t the poster’s point. Coming from a criminological and political background I recognised that the argument was delving into this area, and the point was not the cost to the taxpayer of vaccines vs. no vaccines. I was trying to clarify what the argument was about. And there is plenty of reading around that area you could delve into, but my point was that kind of conversation is not a scientific one. But when it comes to motives, I think we all know that there are forces and motives at work that we are not all fully aware of, as Socrates rightly said “the only thing we know is that we know nothing” – I think when going into a socio-political discussion that is especially true. There are some things we can “know” relatively around science which is what hypotheses and then theorems have shown to be true.

            Now look at the citations. You can get online copies of those papers fromhttp://www.pubmed.gov and using the search window.
            A 400+ page pdf from 1984 that essentially says “Big Pharma” is bad is not evidence that letting kids get measles, where about one in ten get hospitalized and one in 1000 either die or get permanent disability, is more cost effective than giving each child two MMR vaccines.

            – No that is not what I was trying to prove with that, if you read over my point which incorporated that paper (and is a published book) you will see I was just trying to clarify the point that the original poster was making.

    • That’s not correct. Whooping cough vaccine for example is estimted to be 80% effective, therefore 1/5 vaccinated children do not benefit from it and are at risk of infection from sick individuals. That is why vaccinating as many people, as well as developping more effective vaccines, is paramount. Of course, the effectiveness of a vaccine has to be balanced against the risks. After all, nothing is more effective in inducing immunity than the disease itself, but it carries too many risks. That is why the vaccine must be attenuated, the virus weakened or completely killed, which in turn reduces the immune response.

      • which is one reason we get booster shots for some vaccines.

      • Also we changed from the whole-cell pertussis vaccine to an acellular vaccine in the 1980s-1990s (depending on your country), as the whole-cell one caused too much inflammation and fever. Unfortunately, protection from the the acellular vaccine doesn’t last as long (http://www.acsh.org/whooping-cough-vaccine-protection-doesnt-last-long-enough/). How about that, an example of vaccines being modified to err on the side of public safety :) Also, everyone: get a booster!

      • “…Whooping cough vaccine for example is estimted to be 80% effective, therefore 1/5 vaccinated children do not benefit from it and are at risk of infection from sick individuals…”

        And yet vaccines “work”?

        • But not using the vaccine has 0% effectiveness.

        • So, diver1972, what is your proven plan to protect babies and others from pertussis? Make sure to provide verifiable evidence it actually works (hint: not unreferenced website nor news reports).

  3. Wow! How on earth did we evolve for so long without vaccinations? Thinking about it, how as every species currently on the planet made it?

    • By having more children. My mother’s grandparents had five children, and three grew to adulthood. Have you ever done any genealogy? Or read any biographies of anyone born before the twentieth century? How many children did the author of Frankenstein have, and how many lived to adulthood?

      How willing are you to go back to the days when the loss of children is once again normal?

      To make you understand more, watch this fifteen minute video: The Good News of the Decade?. And if you have time, watch this forty minute video: The role of vaccines in global health. Dr. Rosling directly addresses your question.

      • @Chris: Using my family as an example: No kids in my generation died before adulthood. My parents aren’t that old (early 50s) but both of them have a sibling that didn’t survive to adulthood (one died of whooping cough, the other of complications of a heart defect brought on by influenza). In my grandparents’ generation, each family had at least two kids that didn’t survive to adulthood (and more that were lost in WW2 – my grandmother and great-aunt, for example, are among ten of fourteen kids who survived childhood and the only two who survived the war). The further back I go, the higher the death toll gets in each generation: in by great-great grandmother’s generation, more kids died in childhood than lived.

        • Maybe because they had so many children back then, and cleanliness was a little lacking. Just a thought.

          • So why didn’t all diseases decline at about the same rate if it was lack of cleanliness that was the problem? Instead what we see is that diseases decline after the vaccine is made available, not before.

            Could it be that lack of vaccines was a bigger problems than lack of cleanliness?

        • The strong survived the weak died. Humans evolved. These days it seems every degenerate that should have died is just another nodding yahoo on this post blindly pushing vaccines.

          • How do you know you’re not one of those ‘degenerates’?

            Do you even understand evolution? I’m guessing not.

    • We made it by having a very high death rate for those many thousands of years.

      Yeah sure, our species would survive if we didn’t vaccinate, but that doesn’t mean we should let millions of children die when we have a better way.

    • Try the Vaccine Song. It starts off with: “Back in the day they didn’t care about the children, they just had more and more. If you lost a few, big whoop — what’s new? It’s what nature had in store.”

      Watch the rest of it, and then come back and tell us why we should go back to the “good ol’ days.”

      • and many women died in childbirth because they had so many ‘trial’ children … yeah let’s go back to then ..

        • Inferior medical care and the fact that the human head size is so close to the size of the birth canal also played a big role as well.

          Modern medicine can make pregnancy much less risky if done in a properly equipped hospital but without such emergency facilities standing by humans do tend to have a relatively high rate of complications compared to other animals (it’s the price we pay for having such big brains).

      • Not back to the good old days but back to the days when dangerous untested vaccines are not forced on our children. Wait .. that would be 100 years ago …

        • Ah yes, 100 years ago back before smallpox was sent extinct and when polio was endemic.

          But not to worry, vaccines do undergo testing before approval and are less dangerous than the disease they protect against.

        • It is mistakes in vaccines that have driven many pharmaceutical regulations. Some recommended reading:

          Pox: An American History by Michael Willrich

          The Cutter Incident: How America’s First Polio Vaccine Led to the Growing Vaccine Crisis by Paul A. Offit

          Protecting America’s Health: The FDA, Business, and One Hundred Years of Regulation by Philip J. Hilts

          It is interesting to read about history with an open mind. Then you might not make comments with so many obvious errors.

        • Vaccines are not the enemy. Ignorance and disease are the enemy. I hate that any child should die, but I would rather (if forced to choose) lose1 child to vaccination, than 100,000 or more to disease that vaccine would most likely prevent. Kids die in accidents while in car seats or wearing seat belts….should we abolish the law that forces that!!!!

          • That is the most terrible thing I have ever read. You would rather (if forced, of course) lose 1 child??? What if that one child were your very own?? Such a cruel thing to say. There ARE risks involved in both vaccinating and not vaccinating. Evaluating those risks is up to the individual parents. How about let free citizens decide what is right for their own children instead of being scared or manipulated into vaccinating their children? How about letting people do their research before making their choice, and respecting them instead of judging them?
            I have close friends that have witnessed their children become damaged from vaccines, so I respect their wishes never to vaccinate again. I have close friends that get every vaccine on schedule, and I respect their choice as well. (Ironically, my friends’ vaccinated children are sick far more often than the children of my unvaccinated friends.)
            I have never vaccinated my son. He has never gotten seriously ill, never had an ear infection, and when my husband and I (both vaccinated by our parents) get sick from people we are around, my son troops on healthy as a horse. If he is sick, we stay away from people, and if I know my friends recently vaccinated their children, I keep him away from them since they could be contagious to my son. We focus more on eating whole, healthy foods, and cutting out processed foods and refined sugar from our diet.
            No matter what your stance, you should be respectful of both sides as they are doing what they think is best for their children.
            I will start vaccinating my child when I am able to find an objective, independent study done that thoroughly researches the positive and negative outcomes of vaccines equally over a period longer than 20 years, and I am convinced it’s the best option for my son. Until then, I will not.

          • So you would rather 100000 die from diseases than one suffer from a vaccine?

            You do not even care about the 200000 to 300000 people who die on this planet from pertussis each year, or the almost 200000 who die from tetanus? What kind of barbarian are you?

          • I would rather no children die…but forcing my son to get a vaccine is not the answer.
            What about access to clean drinking water in the countries where pertussis and other diseases are out of control? A lot of children are in areas where poor diet, lack of sanitation, and lack of clean water are helping these diseases spread. Here’s a few stats I saw: http://water.org/water-crisis/water-facts/water/
            U.S. children have access to these more often, and I believe that’s why the outbreaks are not as massive here. Children are dying from diseases yes, but I don’t think it’s only resting on vaccination. Maybe a focus on clean environments would make a big difference in the lives of these children. And since these vaccines have been around for awhile, why haven’t the diseases been eradicated? And why are people in the U.S. who have gotten the pertussis vaccine still contracting the disease? Why is the effectiveness of the vaccine being put into question? I do care about the lives of other children. I care about my own son too, and I will do what I think is best for him. Since we live in the States for now, I will probably not get those vaccines.

            I’m sure my answer won’t satisfy you. Your comments probably won’t persuade me to see your side, and I probably won’t persuade you, but that’s not my goal. I am trying to do my research, and I am not just making a quick decision one way or another. Do you have children of your own, by the way? Just respect parents who are trying to make the best decision for their children instead of judging them.

          • US children are also more likely to be vaccinated (why is it that disease incidence didn’t go down all at once with the improvements in water quality and sanitation but instead went down after the vaccines became available?).

            Even when you’ve got clean water, good sanitation and healthy diets the vaccines are still safer than the diseases.

            As for eradicating the diseases, they were on their way out before anti-vaccination idiots showed up and we have already eradicated smallpox and rinderpest through the use of vaccines (it takes many decades to do it).

          • Leah:

            What about access to clean drinking water in the countries where pertussis and other diseases are out of control?

            What does water have to do with a respiratory disease? Or tetanus?

            So what is your plan to prevent the almost 200000 deaths from tetanus each year on this planet? Perhaps this might help: ‘It was hideous’ – family’s tetanus agony.

            I’d be curious what ingredient in the DTaP vaccine is more dangerous than the tetanospasmin that caused that child’s painful spasms. The only other thing that is more toxic than that is botulism.

          • This is a paper about measles and Japan:
            Measles vaccine coverage and factors related to uncompleted vaccination among 18-month-old and 36-month-old children in Kyoto, Japan

            It says:

            According to an infectious disease surveillance (2000), total measles cases were estimated to be from 180,000 to 210,000, and total deaths were estimated to be 88 [11,12].

            So what happened? Did Kyoto have some kind of sanitation crisis? Did the population suddenly become so poor the children were undernourished? Well the answer is in the paper, and is hinted at in the title.

          • Chris, do you have children of your own?

            A person who’s living in slum-like conditions, and not eating a balanced diet or clean water won’t be able to fight off infection of any kind very well. U.S. children may be vaccinated more, but they also live in far better conditions. What is your plan to prevent millions of deaths from lack of clean drinking water or starvation each year? What about these stories? http://thinktwice.com/stories.htm – though I doubt you’ll consider anything I say of worth since you only focus on putting down those who have a different viewpoint than you.

            Anon, where are your charts and graphs? Chris didn’t pick on you like he did others who commented, but maybe that’s because you share the same viewpoint.

            CDC graphs: http://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/pubs/pinkbook/pert.html

            You said it takes many decades to do it, yet the CDC graph only starts it’s date in 1940, right around the time the vaccines were getting going. Maybe including earlier dates would be helpful for them…or not.

            Well, I think I’m finished here. You guys have been great. ;) Thanks though, really for your enlightening comments. Don’t worry, I’ll let you have the last word here and you can get a good night’s sleep.

            To all you concerned parents here, I hope you can find what you are looking for and rest easy in your decision, whatever it may be.

          • Yes, I have a child permanently disabled by a now vaccine preventable disease.

            So answer my questions:

            How would do you plan to prevent the cases of tetanus world wide? Did the child in New Zealand live in a slum?

            And what caused Japan to be affected so much by measles in 2000, was it a sudden problem with sanitation or economics? Is Kyoto just a bunch of slums?

          • Hello? Leah? Where are you? Why won’t you answer my questions?

            Yes, I have an actually disease disabled child. So I really need to know how the vaccines are more dangerous than the diseases. Come on! You seemed to have all the answers, so why won’t you answer mine?

    • “Wow! How on earth did we evolve for so long without vaccinations? Thinking about it, how as every species currently on the planet made it?”

      99% of all species that have ever existed on Earth have gone extinct. Heres an article that discusses a study published in Public Library of Science ONE(linked to at the end of the article) on how disease can cause extinction of mammals:
      http://www.wired.com/wiredscience/2008/11/yes-disease-can/

      Science, it works b*ches!

  4. Trying to reason with most of the really fanatical anti-vaccination people is really a waste of time (just like trying to convince Christians they’re wrong is a waste of time), instead the focus should be on convincing the majority of the population that vaccines are necessary and that religious and philosophical exemptions from vaccination shouldn’t exist (only medical exemptions, and only if there actually is a valid medical reason, not because some natropath quack says so).

    I personally would prefer dealing with the small minority of people who refuse to vaccinate their children through the criminal justice system, whilst they may believe themselves to be in the right in hurting everyone else including their own children I do not see any reason to consider them any different than drunks who think they can drive safely and also do not see any reason to treat them differently from said drunk drivers.

    • You are suggesting that parents who refuse to vaccinate their children should be dealt with by the criminal justice system? Are you implying there should be a pre-emptive persecution of those parents, just in case their children infect someone in the future?
      There is a risk that when you get in your car, you will injure someone. Should you also be pre-emptively persecuted for driving?
      Idiotic.

      • It’s nothing we don’t already do to drunk drivers (or do you think it is perfectly OK for someone who can barely stand to be driving a car?).

        If wait until people die or are seriously injured before punishing those who put the rest of society in grave danger (either by driving when drunk or not vaccinating their kids) then we’re going to have a lot more dead and seriously injured people than if we prevent from doing harm before they manage to cause it.

      • I agree that it is a bit extreme. I am okay with those who ignore public health measures should just stay away from publicly paid for venues like tax funded schools, clinics, community centers, etc.

        • Keeping children away from even just the publicly paid for places would probably constitute cruelty (and it isn’t a child’s fault that the parent believes quacks) and still wouldn’t protect people they come in contact with since there are plenty of places not publicly paid for where people congregate.

          Of course we should try things less drastic than making not vaccinating a crime (e.g. education campaigns, making it harder to get exemptions, etc) but there will always be a small core which needs to be told in no uncertain terms that their actions are unacceptable and will not be tolerated by the rest of us.

          • There is no real requirement that a child be educated in a public school. If a parent is going to ignore basic public health measures, then they can either pay for private school or homeschool.

            I am not sympathetic to those who whine that homeschool means a parent needs to stay home, since I had to stay home to deal with my disabled kid.

            I am also in favor of the health insurance companies requiring higher co-pays for parents who skip vaccines. Make sure they know that since they are not preventing health concerns, they should pay more when their child does get sick.

          • Making them pay extra probably would prevent a substantial proportion of them from not vaccinating but the scope of keeping them away from public places is much wider than just public schools.

            The parents are the ones who are the problem, not the kids so it is wrong to punish the kids for the mistakes of their parents.

          • The parents are the ones who are the problem,

            Very true. Which is probably why having the insurance company insist they practice preventative medicine might be more effective.

            And on the punishing of the kids for the mistakes of their parents: this evening I listened to the Skeptics Zone podcast from Australia (http://skepticzone.tv/). In the Dr. Rachie interview, she mentioned that a twenty-two year old woman died from diphtheria. She had traveled overseas and picked up the disease, apparently she had never been vaccinated. The young woman paid the ultimate price for her parents’ actions. Now her parents are now being punished for their mistake in one of the most horrible ways.

          • Honestly why not wait until ages two to three to vaccinate?? The brain is busy developing its nuero pathways… The age according to VAERS for the highest deaths from vaccines is between 3 months to two years. The reality of a severe and/ or fatal reaction is greater than people are lead to believe…who knows why one child is more susceptible to chemicals than others.
            TRUTH: more infants die from the vaccine than the disease in is suppose tp prevent!
            Why not start vaccines according to childhood development. AFTER the brain and body has had a chance to mature somewhat??

          • Angenal Vadella:

            TRUTH: more infants die from the vaccine than the disease in is suppose tp prevent!

            Citation needed.

            Here is an example:

            Expert Rev Vaccines. 2005 Apr;4(2):173-84.
            Acellular pertussis vaccines in Japan: past, present and future.

            Which says:

            An antivaccine movement developed in Japan as a consequence of increasing numbers of adverse reactions to whole-cell pertussis vaccines in the mid-1970s. After two infants died within 24 h of the vaccination from 1974 to 1975, the Japanese government temporarily suspended vaccinations. Subsequently, the public and the government witnessed the re-emergence of whooping cough, with 41 deaths in 1979. This series of unfortunate events revealed to the public that the vaccine had, in fact, been beneficial.

          • Honestly why not wait until ages two to three to vaccinate??

            Because we’d rather the kid not die before then.

            The age according to VAERS for the highest deaths from vaccines is between 3 months to two years.

            VARES says no such thing.

            What it actually says is that children are more likely to die after having a vaccines between the ages of 3 months to two years, it does not say that the vaccine caused it (i.e. those kids would’ve died had they not been given the vaccine).

            who knows why one child is more susceptible to chemicals than others.

            So you’re one of those people?

      • LOL Love it! Common sense isn’t always so common with alot of these people! How about you get charged for making such a dumb statement!

    • I actually agree with you on this one. This was a friend of mine’s story: “and just so you know, this is one physician whose son is vaccinated on schedule.
      The worst conversation of my professional life? The one I had with some parents last summer, informing them of the death of their 2 children…..from a disease for which they had repeatedly declined inoculation.”

      This is worthy of criminal charges. They refused inoculating their children, and without the now deceased members consent. The parents literally wrote their child’s death. It’s absolutely sick.

      • There are parallels with people not taking their very sick children to a doctor because they rely on faith healing (a lot of those people don’t believe in vaccines).

        I’ll just put a link to CHILD who are arguing (correctly I might add) that religious exemptions from child neglect and homicide laws should be abolished.

        Personally I suspect that criminalising not getting vaccinations would cause most of those even in the anti-vaccination movement to give their children the vaccines (they’ll hate doing it, but they aren’t going to want to go to jail). Of course to actually do that we’d need the majority of society on our side.

      • And what do you say to the parents whose children have died as a direct result of the vaccinations they gave their children without their children’s consent? They acted in what they believed to be the best interests of their child and now their child is dead. Would you seriously want them prosecuted too? After all, their ACTIONS caused the death as opposed to your belief that LACK OF ACTION caused the deaths of the unvaccinated children.

        • I would ask for the citations of those incidents. Perhaps the PubMed indexed case reports, and definitely not VAERS. Plus give us the statistics of that particular vaccine versus the disease or diseases it is meant to prevent.

          You are making a claim, you need to provide verifiable documentation of those claims.

        • I would ask that they stop lying.

        • It is very sad that all these people will disregard the fact that infants die from vaccines. There are definitely risks associated with vaccines and to say don’t reference “VAERS” is INSANE. You do realize that the CDC is an advocate of vaccines and handles VAERS correct? You do also realize that VAERS data is separated into two parts…claims made and those claims paid because enough EVIDENCE FROM MEDICAL PROVIDERS was offered to support the outcome was indeed vaccine related. The truth is the way people portray anti-vax advocates as stubborn and unwilling to look at hard evidence is the same for pro-vax individuals. You can give them all the studies/citations/cases in the world and they want to believe so badly that what they are doing is right that they just ignore it. It does no good to argue with these people. Research for yourself and make the best decision for your family.

          • Tara, at the official entry to the VAERS database, http://vaers.hhs.gov/data/index , it says:

            Please read the following statement on the limits of VAERS data. You MUST click on the box below to access the VAERS database.

            Can you please tell us in your own words what you must read and understand before using the VAERS database?

        • Thank you for your comment. It is unbelievable to me how intolerant people can be. People have the right to choose. No one has the right to force anyone to take anything into their body. It is a fact that vaccines kill and injure children. Smallpox vaccine was a disaster. Deaths and disease increased due to the smallpox vaccine. The polio vaccine was not the miracle it is hailed to be. Even Dr. Salk admits this. It killed people to and gave them polio. I suggest you who blindly believe in vaccines and judge those who do not believe in them to become truly educated on the subject. Anyone who tries to force their beliefs on others is not truly civilized. Free will is our greatest gift from God. I assure you that unvaccinated children pose no threat to others. Vaccinated children do have foreign viruses and who knows what in their bodies. Maybe it is the vaccinated we should worry about.

          • Citation needed, especially for the Salk quote in context.

            Please also tell us which vaccine in the present pediatric schedule kills on a regular basis. The Salk vaccine is the presently used IPV, so do list how many children in the USA died because if it this year.

          • I assure you that unvaccinated children pose no threat to others. Vaccinated children do have foreign viruses and who knows what in their bodies. Maybe it is the vaccinated we should worry about.

            List the title, journal and dates that show vaccinated children spread viruses from the present pediatric vaccine schedule. It may have been true for the smallpox vaccine and Oral Polio Vaccine, but they are no longer given to children in the USA.

          • i agree with you , somone who is talkking sence , i wish there were more people who actually studied the real statistics on vaccines, and how they are absolutley useless!!!!

          • rabia:

            real statistics on vaccines, and how they are absolutley useless!!!!

            rabia, a couple of things just in case you do not a post and run like Christine:

            Please post the title, journal and dates of the PubMed indexed papers that show the statistics that vaccines are useless.

            The following is not technically statistics, but from census data. Please tell us why the incidence rate of measles in the USA fell 90% between 1960 and 1970. Do not mention any other decade, country nor rate of death. Do support your statements by posting the relevant title, journal and date of the PubMed indexed paper.
            From http://www.census.gov/prod/99pubs/99statab/sec31.pdf
            Year…. Rate per 100000 of measles
            1912 . . . 310.0
            1920 . . . 480.5
            1925 . . . 194.3
            1930 . . . 340.8
            1935 . . . 584.6
            1940 . . . 220.7
            1945 . . . 110.2
            1950 . . . 210.1
            1955 . . . 337.9
            1960 . . . 245.4
            1965 . . . 135.1
            1970 . . . . 23.2
            1975 . . . . 11.3
            1980 . . . . . 5.9
            1985 . . . . . 1.2
            1990 . . . . .11.2
            1991 . . . . . .3.8
            1992 . . . . . .0.9
            1993 . . . . . .0.1
            1994 . . . . . .0.4
            1995 . . . . . .0.1
            1996 . . . . . .0.2
            1997 . . . . . . 0.1

      • But pharmaceutical companies can continue to kill children without any repercussions?

        • There is no evidence that they are doing that.

          • Looks like you are paid by them. How much? Must be worth it…

          • Kidgam, how do you know? Or are you using the very old and tired Pharma Shill Gambit? Do something new and different, provide some actual scientific evidence in this discussion.

            Perhaps you can try by answering the question I asked rabia last July (it is above this comment): Please tell us why the incidence rate of measles in the USA fell 90% between 1960 and 1970. Do not mention any other decade, country nor rate of death. Do support your statements by posting the relevant title, journal and date of the PubMed indexed paper.

    • So the government should be able to tell us what to eat think and drink?
      Why are you worried if your children are vaccinated? if you believe in their ability so much then why worry? Lets make more laws preventing free speech and personal opinions, you are a SHEEP… BAHHHHHHH your backassward thinking is what is wrong with this country, bet you think marijuana is more harmful then achohol and cigarettes too, because Uncle Sam told you so…go out eat your yellow # 5 suck down your diet cola and keep your opinions to yourself

      • So what do think about a pair of teenagers with measles wandering around the Super Bowl Village,possibly infecting vulnerable people, including babies too young for the MMR? Do you think they should be held accountable for any injury to others?

        Are you in favor of letting them cause harm just for their own “freedom”?

        • just wanted to say that , do you know that the main people with all the power have changed some of the graphs and stats that you quote from to meet there own needs to kill off the population? i dont have th evidence now but i will try and find it for you as i believe that is what is going on

          i dont think that unvaccinated children are threat to other people, what about the flouride in the water , (tap water ) is that just to help our teeth ? Dont we need to question what we take into our bodies, and many many vaccines have actually killed people instead of helping them….

          for instance why would you want to put a cows version of tb into your body? to protect you from tb? isnt it better if doctors tell us to eat organic food, avoid junk ,

          avoid toxic substances like coke etc? why would they just inject us when they could be doing long term good for humanity by not feeding us toxic fruit veg… corn..etc?

          • What you think is irrelevant, the unvaccinated are a threat to everyone else.

            Oh and it’s a good idea to avoid unsafe food, like say, anything sold as ‘organic’ (which are more likely to give you food poisoning than something with the Radura label on it).

          • and many many vaccines have actually killed people instead of helping them….

            Citation required.

            There have been several babies killed recently by pertussis. So just tell us how many more kids were killed with the DTaP than died from actually getting pertussis.

            From this:

            Provisional counts from our surveillance system indicate that more than 17,000 cases of pertussis were reported to CDC through July 12, 2012. 9 pertussis-related deaths have been reported during that same time period.

      • “Why are you worried if your children are vaccinated? if you believe in their ability so much then why worry? ”

        Damn right – your logic is unassailable. it’s like when people try to force us to drive sober – if they’re so sure that driving sober is safe, why does it matter if other people drive drunk. More power to the unvaccinated, drunken freedom-lovers!!!!!

      • Seriously. I am sick of reading people’s stupid comments about things they know nothing about. Have we forgotten that this is all about money. Do you think that your government has any good intentions for their people??? hahah you are all moors. and slaves. You always will be. I”ll teach you the most important world you will ever know….NO…just say NO

        • Yes it is, vaccination is a very cost effective way to prevent death and injury.

          I mean it costs cents per dose and has minimal side effects while preventing serious diseases.

        • Yes, it is terrible to let kids get sick when it can be avoided with a simple vaccination. Hospitalization is not cheap, and neither is care for those who are permanently disabled by measles, mumps, Hib, etc. Anyone who thinks vaccines are too expensive must be working for “Big Hospital Supply.” And anyone who thinks that kids should get “immunity” by actually getting sick instead of with a vaccine is sadistic and evil.

          Some data:

          J Infect Dis. 2004 May 1;189 Suppl 1:S210-5.
          Measles hospitalizations, United States, 1985-2002.

          J Infect Dis. 2005 Nov 15;192(10):1686-93. Epub 2005 Oct 12.
          Subacute sclerosing panencephalitis: more cases of this fatal disease are prevented by measles immunization than was previously recognized.

          Arch Pediatr Adolesc Med. 2005;159:1136-1144.
          Economic Evaluation of the 7-Vaccine Routine Childhood Immunization Schedule in the United States, 2001

          Arch Pediatr Adolesc Med. 2006 Mar;160(3):302-9. Review.
          Impact of specific medical interventions on reducing the prevalence of mental retardation.

          West J Med. 1996 Jul-Aug;165(1-2):20-5.
          Pediatric hospital admissions for measles. Lessons from the 1990 epidemic.

    • I have a vaccine injured son. I have one pediatrician who says to not vaccinate my other children and one GP who dropped them as family patients because they weren’t vaccinated and a natralpath who is far from a “quack” saying hold off and be informed. So I am left to do my own research. I am an intelligent, concerned and motivated parent. We ignorantly followed the vaccination for my oldest son and it almost killed him. I need to have the right to do what is right for MY children. Unfortunately this is NOT a black and white issue.

      • Jenn:

        I have a vaccine injured son.

        I am sorry to hear this. Unfortunately it does happen, usually at about one in a million doses.

        The vaccines are still much safer than the diseases. If your children have an immunity issues that does not allow them to become vaccinated, you need to encourage any who come near your children to get their vaccines. That way your children are protected through community immunity.

        When my son was a baby only got DT instead of the DTP because of a history of seizures. Because he was not protected from pertussis at a time when our county was having a pertussis outbreak (thanks Barbara Loe Fisher!), I asked about the vaccine status of all the children he came into contact with. He depended on the other children not being infectious.

    • “…Trying to reason with most of the really fanatical anti-vaccination people is really a waste of time (just like trying to convince Christians they’re wrong is a waste of time)…”

      I’m currently a hard atheist, albeit relatively new to the label ( 10 years). There are quite a few others out there like me. I’ve always been pro-choice about vaccination, but I’ve been particularly hard line about it since a year before my first child was born (7 years ago). All that to say that Christians can be and have been persuaded to abandon their belief system without replacing with another equally false belief system. :)

      • I doubt many of the Christians who left their belief did so due to outside persuasion, more likely they learnt about their religion and the real world and realised that the two contradict each other (and the religion itself).

  5. I know many parents who have chosen not to vaccinate and we all are unhappy about it. We all want to protect our kids but our kids have health issues that makes us worry if the vaccine will injure them. We are not trusting the pharmaceutical industry and the studies they have published. Just as I don’t trust the tabbaco industry, or any industry with billions of dollars in profits. My son had a reaction to his 2 month vaccines and yet I was so determined it was important I immunized him again at six months. He got a reaction again and began to have medical problems and developmental delays. My pediatrician said I should consider holding off on vaccinating for a while. My son was diagnosed with autism and I was thrown into a community with parents whose children had other medical issues besides autism and worried if they were healthy enough to vaccinate and other families that blamed the vaccines for their child’s health problems in the first place. There are children with mitochondrial dysfunction who shouldn’t vaccinate, perhaps there are some children who have genetic weaknesses that shouldn’t be vaccinated and we need to test if there is a subset of autistic children who shouldn’t as well. Most parents I meet want to vaccinate but their child has developmental delays and comorbities of many different health problems that make them scared to. When you have a child with both medical and neurological problems you do become hyper nervous of doing any more harm to them. I know the risks of not vaccinating they haunt me everyday. All I desperately want is a healthy child.

    • That would count, I suspect, as a valid medical reason not to vaccinate, in which case your (and the others’) children would be dependent on herd immunity preventing the spread of the various diseases, and hence on those with healthy children who may be thinking of not vaccinating for religious or health-scare objections.

    • “We are not trusting the pharmaceutical industry and the studies they have published.” What about the overwhelming evidence from the entire medical establishment? Not anecdote, evidence.

      “My son had a reaction…and began to have medical problems and developmental delays.”

      What evidence do you have that these “reactions” were caused by the vaccines? There is currently NO evidence of any link between autism and vaccination. NONE. There have been many studies that show NO evidence of a link. NONE!

      “There are children with mitochondrial dysfunction who shouldn’t vaccinate…”
      What evidence do you have of ANY of this?

      “All I desperately want is a healthy child.”
      I’m sure every parent wants this. You can help by informing yourself and consulting medical professionals who can help (e.g. by evaluating if your child can be vaccinated.)

      • There actually was a famous case where the courts decided that mitochondrial deficiencies were responsible for the vaccination causing autism. However, it was a bad decision. Most medical professionals think that they are unlinked: <a href="http://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJMp0802904&quot; title="Vaccines and Autism Revisited — The Hannah Poling Case — New England Journal of Medicine".

      • I am amazed at the blind vaccine people. No Evidence? Really? Do you even know what is inside the vaccines? Do you understand the term Neurotoxin? Why have the Autism rates skyrocketed as the number of vaccines increase? Do you know the AMA wants 79 vaccines by age 18? Why? Why doesn’t everyone actually read the BS “studies” that say vaccines are safe. Why don’t you ask yourself why they took “preservatives” out of animal vaccines over 25 years ago but leave it in for humans? Why do all of the CDC studies take one part of a three part vaccine and say “See! Our vaccines are safe.” Why has there never been a cumulative study that looks at all of the toxins combined may cause a problem for many people? Why is flouride in our water? Neurotoxin Gulag read people.

        • Yes, I understand the term “neurotoxin.” The question is do you understand it. Prove it by providing a scientific citation that shows that the ingredients in the DTaP are more toxic than the toxins created by the bacterial infections. Those toxins being tetanospasmin, pertussis toxin and diphtheria toxin.

        • “Anon is full of Sugar Honey Ice Tea” – thanks for the wonderful parody of anti-vaccine lies. It’s amazing, but some people actually believe things only slightly more ridiculous that your version.

    • There are times when I wish vaccines did cause autism, although I’m regularly disgusted by the level of anti-autistic bigotry in the anti-vaccination movement (even if vaccines caused as much autism as they claim you’d pretty much have to consider autism as worse than death to justify not vaccinating).

      Vaccine reactions usually aren’t too bad (the odd rash mostly) though people who get the relatively severe ones would have a medical reason not to vaccinate, just so long as there are still enough people vaccinated for herd immunity to work. It’s very unlikely that there is any correlation between autism and serious vaccine reactions (autism is something a person is born with anyway).

      Of course a person who gets severe vaccine reactions may also be a person who is likely to get a much more severe form of the disease should they ever catch it.

      BTW: The anti-vaccination industry is also quite profitable, after all, didn’t Andrew Wakefield get £400,000 from a lawyer (who was suing vaccine manufacturers) to produce the infamous study which started the whole MMR mass-hysteria. Vaccines are also so cheap that there isn’t really much profit in making them (the really profitable drugs are things like Statins).

      • You do realize 400,000 pounds is chump change compared to what pharmaceutical companies make off of the public following their “recommended” schedules right?

        • Do tell us. Explain exactly how it is more cost effective to let every kid get measles, mumps and rubella instead of giving them two doses of the MMR vaccine.

          Before the first measles vaccine in 1963 almost every child had measles before they turned fifteen. One out of about a thousand cases of measles requires hospital treatment (and one in three thousand ended up in a cemetery). Though the present measles epidemic in Europe is putting about one out of every four cases of measles into hospital.

          Now do tell us with real numbers and citations how much less money is spent taking care of children with pneumonia, encephalitis, etc when they have measles than preventing measles with two doses of a vaccine.

        • “You do realize 400,000 pounds is chump change compared to what pharmaceutical companies make off of the public following their “recommended” schedules right?”

          Yep. Chump change is exactly the right term for the amount of money it took to convince former Dr. Wakefield to fake up some results for his bosses.

          • Dr. Wakefield is a true Dr. who cared about the children who were getting so sick. I can’t believe people are so ignorant to ignore his studies and believe he is guilty as charged. Go to the source and you will find who is guilty and that is those who are covering up his studies and don’t give a darn about the children. They are not just his studies. There are many more studies validating his studies and the other doctors involved;. Ask the parents of the suffering children. Parents know when they have a healthy child who after getting vaccinated see their children change right before their eyes. Oh, of course it couldn’t be the vaccines. They are not to be questioned ever. It makes me sick to my stomach the blind faith ;people put in these potions. The facts are staring them right in the face and they deny them. Dr. Wakefield was willing to give up everything for the children. I am so thankful for him and for men that are willing to find the truth amongst evil men who will continue to hide it.

          • Where is Wakefield still allowed to practice medicine?

          • Wakefield cared so much about children’s welfare that he performed invasive medical tests on 12 without ethical clearance.

            Such a coincidence that he held a patent for an alternative measles vaccine, too.

            How is it that the people who demonise the pharmaceutical research process, making wild claims that it’s rife with dodgy stuff like this this, exalt Wakefield as a hero for doing exactly that?

    • I am sorry to hear about your son. From what you say, you sound like you understand how important vaccinations are, and I am saddened to hear about your son’s reactions, which I assume were severe enough to make your doctor advise on holding off on vaccines. In that case, I think listening to your child’s doctor was the wise thing to do.

      I also understand your point about not trusting the industry which has a direct stake in the fight. It is a fact that studies that are funded by industry, no matter which industry, tend to have more positive outcomes than studies funded by public money or other sources, which doesn’t mean they’re fraudulent, it just means we have to take them with a greater grain of salt, especially if they seem to contradict the evidence up to that point.

      Luckily for us, we do not have to rely on Pharma studies; a lot of the existing scientific evidence on vaccines, (I would like to say the majority, but I don’t have a statistic available) is funded not by Pharma, but by public/private money. All conflicts of interest are supposed to be disclosed so that they can be evaluated.

      The mistake that most people in the anti-vaccine camp do is that they dismiss, out of hand, not only industry-funded studies, but also government funded studies (via the government-is-in-the-Big-Pharma-pocket line of “reasoning”), and any study by anyone who was ever involved in any vaccine decision capacity, received any speaking fees ever etc. When you do that, you’re not left with many experts, or funders, to pay for running the studies.

      Vaccines are not a completely risk-free proposition and there certainly are some individuals for whom it makes sense, from a medical point, to skip vaccinations. I just hope that with time and study we can get better at identifying those individuals so that the best choice is made for each individual person.

    • I feel very sad hearing that ,

      this is why i am against vaccines unless they are 100 percent safe
      they are not!!!!!

      human nature was not intended to have vaccines, and the illnesses that were present and declined all declined way before the vaccines were introduced (i will try to find the evidence) and the vaccines came after … people get immune for life after having certain illnesses, as long as children have good food and nutrition and live in good condition they dont usually die ffrom things such as chicken pox and measles and rubella… its so sad that this info is not given to us…

      you all have your opinion though and i have mine, i would avoid any more vaccines

      • rk:

        this is why i am against vaccines unless they are 100 percent safe

        Please tell us what on this planet is 100% safe. Is walking from your house down the block 100% safe? Or will you have something fall from a tree, or will you trip on the sidewalk or just run into a stray dog? Nothing is 100% safe.

        And do tell us how exactly pertussis and measles are 100% safe.

        rk:

        human nature was not intended to have vaccines, and the illnesses that were present and declined all declined way before the vaccines were introduced (i will try to find the evidence) and the vaccines came after

        “(i will try to find the evidence)”

        Yes, please do that. And make sure it is “incidence” (morbidity), but not mortality. You can start by telling us what reduced measles incidence in the USA by 90% between 1960 and 1970. Do not mention any other decade, another country nor deaths. Be sure to provide the scientific documentation in the form of the title, journal, and titles of the PubMed indexed paper to support your answer:

        From http://www.census.gov/prod/99pubs/99statab/sec31.pdf
        Year…. Rate per 100000 of measles
        1912 . . . 310.0
        1920 . . . 480.5
        1925 . . . 194.3
        1930 . . . 340.8
        1935 . . . 584.6
        1940 . . . 220.7
        1945 . . . 110.2
        1950 . . . 210.1
        1955 . . . 337.9
        1960 . . . 245.4
        1965 . . . 135.1
        1970 . . . . 23.2
        1975 . . . . 11.3
        1980 . . . . . 5.9
        1985 . . . . . 1.2
        1990 . . . . .11.2
        1991 . . . . . .3.8
        1992 . . . . . .0.9
        1993 . . . . . .0.1
        1994 . . . . . .0.4
        1995 . . . . . .0.1
        1996 . . . . . .0.2
        1997 . . . . . . 0.1

      • this is why i am against vaccines unless they are 100 percent safe
        they are not!!!!!

        They don’t have to be 100% safe, merely safer than the disease they protect against. Turns out they are.

        human nature was not intended to have vaccines,

        Human nature was not intended to be anything.

        Look, there’s no god out there designing us a certain way, instead we evolved to survive and reproduce, evolution is a powerful force but it is blind and amoral.

        The natural way of things is eat, reproduce, suffer, die.

        and the illnesses that were present and declined all declined way before the vaccines were introduced (i will try to find the evidence) and the vaccines came after …

        You won’t find the evidence because it doesn’t exist, the fact is that diseases die out when we start vaccinating against them, otherwise we’d have wiped out all of them at about the same time, not only after the vaccine became available.

        people get immune for life after having certain illnesses, as long as children have good food and nutrition and live in good condition they dont usually die ffrom things such as chicken pox and measles and rubella… its so sad that this info is not given to us…

        They still suffer from them if they haven’t been vaccinated (and even when the vaccinated get them the vaccinated often have milder symptoms).

        Oh and the death rate from measles for children with good nutrition and health care is about one in a thousand, the vaccine probably hasn’t killed anyone (and almost certainly has serious complication rates below one in a million).

        Chickenpox also kills (far more than the vaccine, in fact far more than any vaccine).

        you all have your opinion though and i have mine, i would avoid any more vaccines

        You aren’t entitled to your own facts. Nor are you entitled to not be called a public health menace.

      • Yes, I agree. People don’t know the real history and why people do die of childhood diseases such as measles. These childhood diseases clean the body of toxins and build our immune systems. The public is completely brainwashed into thinking that injecting poisons into your children’s bloodstreams will protect them. This is quackery. Building health through healthy eating, which most people today have no clue what that means, will protect you of the plagues of today. You think we are without plagues today. We have some of the most dangerous diseases out there today caused by modern medicine and unhealthy habits. There is no magic shot. We must take responsibility for our health and our children. Vaccines can kill and cause severe reactions ruining a person’s life. Nobody has a right to force such lethal injections in a person’s body. It is completely immoral. Injecting them into a defenseless child is worse. Dr. Wakefield was made an example not to question this savage practice. He is by far not the only Dr. to question this unholy practice, but he had to pay the price. I am thankful for people like him who truly care about the children and will not hide his findings because they are not popular.

        • Christine, what “toxins” are cleaned out by diseases? How are they different than tetanospasmin? Please provide scientifically verifiable evidence to support your answer.

          It is estimated that over 90% of the native peoples of both American continents disappeared in less than two centuries. The main reason cited was diseases like smallpox, measles, and other imported from Europe (see these books: Guns, Steel and Germs, Plagues and Peoples, 1492 and 1493). So how does your history explain their disappearance?

          What vaccines are administered intravenously?

          Please also tell us exactly how much more dangerous the MMR vaccine is compared to measles. You might want to read this: The Clinical Significance of Measles: A Review. Since measles causes encephalitis about once in every thousand cases, and kills about once per three thousand… do tell us how the MMR is worse.

          Do provide real citations in the form of the title, date and journal of the PubMed indexed paper.

          Oh, and do answer my question above: what caused the rate of measles to fall 90% in the USA between 1960 and 1970?

          • Dear Chris, I had measles as a child. In a healthy child, these childhood diseases are not dangerous. It is also important to know how to treat these disease. This alone would save many lives. I believe the vaccine to be so much more dangerous than the real disease. Read about smallpox and the real history of the vaccine. It is not in favor of the vaccine. There are many scientists with different opinions about vaccines. There are many doctors who truly believed in vaccines until they saw what they did to their patients. Our best evidence is in real people, not a laboratory. Read the poisoned needle. Any outbreak of disease is a result of violating the laws of nature. I think we should all be much more concerned with cancer in children, heart disease, etc. We are not healthy in America and the drug industry is not making us any healthier. We need to start feeding our children healthy, organic foods, and using herbs that treat the true cause of disease. There are many societies that live long, healthy lives, without the debilitating diseases we have. People achieved these results without vaccines and drugs. They ate in season and what nature gave them. We do not have to suffer as we do. We need to take responsibility for our own health. And with all of this, people will still get sick and die. There are no magic shots to save us. Even if there were, we all have the freedom to make our own choices. I believe vaccines did not save us, but I believe that they have caused great sickness to come upon us. You believe what you want to believe and I will believe what I choose to. I do not make my choices blindly. I have read from reliable, intelligent sources. About the statistics you give, there are other reliable statistics that do not agree with yours, We all have to choose who we believe. It all comes down to what we have faith in and we all have that right to choose.

          • Christine, what “toxins” are cleaned out by diseases? How are they different than tetanospasmin? Please provide scientifically verifiable evidence</b? to support your answer.

            What vaccines are administered intravenously? Why did you ignore this?

            What caused the incidence of measles to plummet 90% in the USA between 1960 and 1970? Do not mention mortality, any other decade or any other country (Wales and England are not in the USA).

            And, please, for the sake of every English teacher on this planet… learn how to use paragraphs. White space is your reading friendly friend.

          • Dear Chris, I had measles as a child. In a healthy child, these childhood diseases are not dangerous. It is also important to know how to treat these disease.

            Do tell that to Roald Dahl’s surviving children. They may have a different opinion, especially in regards to their oldest sibling.

            And exactly how do you treat measles? What do you do to prevent the one in a thousand cases that turn into encephalitis? What is your non-eugenic definition of a “healthy child”? Perhaps you should write the authors of The Clinical Significance of Measles: A Review on how to best treat for measles.

            Oh, and do answer my other questions. I really want to which vaccines are given intravenously.

          • Read the poisoned needle.

            So I found that book on John Scudamore’s whale.to website. So telling us to read that book is an oblique incarnation of Scopie’s Law. It is not a reliable source of information. For instance one of Ms. McBeans claims is “Polio is caused by eating too many carbohydrates, ice cream, drinking cola, having one’s tonsils removed and having “negative emotions that generate internal poisons.”

            Well, Christine, at the present time the countries polio is now mostly seen in are Nigeria and Pakistan. Can you honestly tell us that they are eating too much sugar?

            Do yourself a favor and apply to your local community college to learn some actual science, history, geography and English grammar. Then come back and answer my question about where vaccines are administered (hint: read Eleanor McBean’s wikipedia page). Otherwise, do not give us advice until you can show a basic understanding of the issues.

  6. Fabulously written! and much appreciated! :-D

    • “parents” is misspelled in the title. It’s not fabulously written if the author cannot be bothered to run a spell checker.

      • ‘Parents’ is spelled correctly – it is not a possessive use and no apostrophe is required. ‘Parents of some children’ is perfectly correct. It is a simple plural. Even if the sentence were constructed differently, it would still be the correct spelling – ‘some children’s parents’.

        However, he did use ‘off’ when he should have used ‘of’.

        Perhaps you should think more before be so pedantic – or attempting to be.

      • I have made the adjustments, thank you for pointing them out. I did run a spell checker, unfortunately it does not check the title. Furthermore, even if it did, it wouldn’t be able to distinguish between “parents” and “parent’s”. That requires a human eye and I am glad you’ve lend me yours. I hope you were able to get past that, and read the article for the message I’m trying to get across.

  7. LOL the author seems just as deluded as the person being critiqued. I came here hoping for some good information and rational arguments, however, it seems both sides can’t quite see the whole picture.

    And LOL @ comparing not being vaccinated to having unprotected sex and sharing needles.

    Where can I find some unbiased information on this topic? I guess I need to stick to the case studies and come to a conclusion on my own.

    • Could you elaborate on the specific points of the article that indicate delusion?

    • You won’t unbiased information anywhere about anything.

      Though it just so happens that reality sometimes has a bias.

    • Try reading the Vaccine Book by Dr. Sears. It’s lays out the information vaccine by vaccine and lets the reader decide. I found it very helpful!

      • Why waste money on a book when you can just get every recommended vaccine (none of which currently have safety problems worse than not taking them, you don’t need to buy a book to learn that).

        • .and Crispin Davies’ uncle once sat in a taxicab drvien by Jim Gudgeon, whose daughter Tracey had MMR vaccine when she was one year old. Methinks this is an obvious conspiracy to cover up the horror effects of vaccine ..Not.Your silly rants smack of utter desperation, Mr Miller. If Brian Deer is wrong about Wakefield’s work, I would have expected a writ the size of Texas to descend upon the Times, and for Wakefield to sue the pants off Deer for defamation. Can you explain why none of this has happened? Perchance it could be that Deer’s claims are (once again) actually true?

      • What are Dr. Sears qualifications in immunization, vaccines and epidemiology? Perhaps you should read a review of the book by pediatrician Dr. John Snyder: Cashing In On Fear: The Danger of Dr. Sears, where he says:

        The youngest son of Dr. Bill Sears, the prolific parent book writer and creator of AskDrSears.com, Dr. Bob has become the bane of many a pediatrician’s existence.

        Dr. Snyder outlines many errors made by Dr. Sears in his book. Errors that can have some very dire consequences if enough parents followed Dr. Sears’ recommendations.

  8. “Secondly, she demands that she’ll only consider doing something for the greater good if it is absolutely, 100% harmless to her child, which is not unreasonable either. ”

    I disagree, that is *entirely* unreasonable: there is nothing known to humanity that is “100% harmless”. Pretty much everything that there is is relatively harmless, *contingent* on other factors.

    Otherwise, excellent article. :)

    • My point was that, if the only reason we were asking someone to vaccinate their children was to protect others, it would not be unreasonable for them to demand 100% safety, although to be sure that’s just as good as declining to do it, since nothing is 100% safe.

      I do understand though, as a parent, that even the slightest risk to my child, for no benefit to her, but solely for the benefit of others, would not be a proposition I’d be too comfortable with, and that is how many anti-vaccine parents will react to the “greater good” argument.

  9. “they will stay at home if sick, thus infecting nobody” is easily defeated thusly:

    If that was true, nobody would ever -get- infected by anyone, thus infectious disease would not exist. But it does, thus the argument can’t hold.

  10. So, when science was telling us to ‘bleed our illnesses away’ would you have punished those who refused? Medical science has so often been proved wrong yet still people blindly believe their Doctor. In my lifetime I have been prescribed medication more than once which has later been withdrawn because of ‘side effects’.
    All illnesses have their peaks and troughs regardless of medication and we really need to look at health improvements made in nutrition, lifestyle, clean water and sanitation.
    We have vaccinations for those at risk of Typhoid but still people die from it in poor sanitation areas.
    I believe that most if not all vaccinations are irrelevant and much more to do with profit than health care.

    • Actually it wasn’t science which told people to “bleed our illnesses away” but science which showed that to be a stupid thing to do.

      Bloodletting was a practice based on the ancient doctrine of the four humours which science refuted (and had already been shown to be nonsense in the 19th century).

      As for your nonsense about it not being vaccines but other things which caused the drop in diseases, why didn’t better sanitation, nutrition, etc deal with all the other diseases at the same time instead of only after a vaccine was developed against that disease.

      See http://www.quackwatch.org/03HealthPromotion/immu/immu01.html for why you are wrong.

      It’s almost as if what determines when a disease drops in incidence permanently is when the vaccine becomes available.

      Vaccines also aren’t all that profitable especially when you compare them to the other medicines the pharmaceutical companies make (e.g. Statins).

      • Good point! I agree, many of these illness where on the decline before the rise in popularity of vaccines

        • Except that they weren’t on the decline before the vaccine became popular.

          • That is just not true. Many illness where most certianly on the decline due to things like sanitation, before vaccines where administured to everyone.

          • Then prove it. Just make sure that you do not confuse morbidity with mortality, just show the morbidity data. Please do not include scarlet fever, which is an untreated strep infection (and still very prevalent). Stick to diseases that are covered in the present pediatric schedule in the USA (so no typhoid, typhus or cholera data). Link to the original data, and not to a website like childhealthsafety.

            The following is the type of data I am asking for, and while I am at it you can explain what great improvements in sanitation reduced measles incidence in the USA by 90% between 1960 and 1970. Be sure to provide the scientific documentation to support your answer:

            From http://www.census.gov/prod/99pubs/99statab/sec31.pdf
            Year…. Rate per 100000 of measles
            1912 . . . 310.0
            1920 . . . 480.5
            1925 . . . 194.3
            1930 . . . 340.8
            1935 . . . 584.6
            1940 . . . 220.7
            1945 . . . 110.2
            1950 . . . 210.1
            1955 . . . 337.9
            1960 . . . 245.4
            1965 . . . 135.1
            1970 . . . . 23.2
            1975 . . . . 11.3
            1980 . . . . . 5.9
            1985 . . . . . 1.2
            1990 . . . . .11.2
            1991 . . . . . .3.8
            1992 . . . . . .0.9
            1993 . . . . . .0.1
            1994 . . . . . .0.4
            1995 . . . . . .0.1
            1996 . . . . . .0.2
            1997 . . . . . . 0.1

          • Disease rates tended to fluctuate around a bit but before vaccines were licensed they weren’t on an overall downward trend.

            Then when the vaccines came out they started going down (with some lag as people were usually vaccinated some years before they would usually get the disease).

            If it were sanitation which was responsible you’d expect all diseases to have shown the same downward trend at the same time, but instead what we see is that diseases stay roughly steady until a vaccine becomes available, then soon after the incidence rate drops.

            See http://www.quackwatch.org/03HealthPromotion/immu/immu01.html

    • So, when science was telling us to ‘bleed our illnesses away’ would you have punished those who refused? Medical science has so often been proved wrong yet still people blindly believe their Doctor.

      That is because it advances and changes. People learn new things, and then change what they are doing to a better way. Like removing lead from paint and gasoline. Or preventing children from dying with vaccines, so that a family can have two children and be reasonably sure they will both grow up to become adults.

      Unfortunately there are those who are stuck in the past. That would include those who rely on homeopathy (which has not changed in two hundred years), or keep going on about thimerosal in vaccines (all pediatric vaccines have had thimerosal free versions for a decade).

      Sanitation does nothing for respiratory diseases like pertussis and measles. Also it caused an increase in polio in the early part of the twentieth century due to babies not getting it early. But sanitation is why we do not vaccinate for cholera, typhoid and typhus.

      I believe that most if not all vaccinations are irrelevant and much more to do with profit than health care.

      Please look at page 30 of this report and tell me where vaccines fall on that chart. Then tell us exactly how treating measles, mumps, pertussis, diphtheria, polio and other vaccine preventable diseases are so much cheaper than preventing them with vaccines. Provide us a real report on how expensive vaccines are compared to putting a child on a respirator. Something on the order of this kind of evidence:

      Economic Evaluation of the 7-Vaccine Routine Childhood Immunization Schedule in the United States, 2001
      Zhou F, Santoli J, Messonnier ML, Yusuf HR, Shefer A, Chu SY, Rodewald L, Harpaz R.
      Arch Pediatr Adolesc Med. 2005;159:1136-1144.

      An economic analysis of the current universal 2-dose measles-mumps-rubella vaccination program in the United States.
      Zhou F, Reef S, Massoudi M, Papania MJ, Yusuf HR, Bardenheier B, Zimmerman L, McCauley MM.
      J Infect Dis. 2004 May 1;189 Suppl 1:S131-45.

      Pediatric hospital admissions for measles. Lessons from the 1990 epidemic.
      Chavez GF, Ellis AA.
      West J Med. 1996 Jul-Aug;165(1-2):20-5.

      You also seem to have a shaky grasp on history. I am shocked that you did not know that family size has changed over the past century, and that child mortality rates have declined. Remember those who do not know history are doomed to repeat it. Here is some reading to remedy your knowledge deficits:

      Polio: An American Story by David M. Oshinsky

      Flu: The Story Of The Great Influenza Pandemic of 1918 and the Search for the Virus that Caused It by Gina Kolata

      The Great Influenza by John Barry (this book also goes through a history of how medicine changed early in the 20th century)

      Vaccine by Arthur Allen

      • Actually, the average family size has decressed. This of course is now by choice. Just look at how many children out great grand parents and grand parents had. In most familys it was not uncommon to have 5 or more. When now most people have only 2 or 3.

        • And your point? I said “Or preventing children from dying with vaccines, so that a family can have two children and be reasonably sure they will both grow up to become adults.”

          There is a correlation between child mortality and number of children.

    • “Medical science has so often been proved wrong yet still people blindly believe their Doctor.”
      Blind belief (or disbelief) is what anti-vaxers advocate. Scientific fact is what there is sufficient evidence to support, with little or no contradictory evidence. In the case of infectious disease, fact is that vaccines usually offer the best opportunity of protecting the population and even of eradicating these diseases completely.

      “In my lifetime I have been prescribed medication more than once which has later been withdrawn because of ‘side effects’.”
      No need for the scare quotes – occasionally, new medications are found to produce side effects that carry a risk that is not acceptable, compared to the condition it is prescribed for. All medications may cause side effects; because they’re indicated for people who are NOT ill, the acceptable level of side effects of vaccines is extremely low, so vaccines are among the safest medical interventions in the pharmaceutical arsenal. Vaccines are actually safer than most over-the counter meds and most assuredly DO prevent diseases, the effects of which can be debilitating or deadly. ALL the currectly available evidence point to these facts and there is currently NO reliable evidence that contradict them.

      http://www.who.int/immunization_safety/safety_quality/vaccine_safety_websites/en/index.html
      http://www.phac-aspc.gc.ca/publicat/cig-gci/cedv-cemv-tab-eng.php

  11. Would you be so kind as to provide links to studies comparing vaccines to placebos? And by placebo, I don’t mean other vaccines or experimental vaccines, I mean things like sugar pills.

    I’ve done some research on my own, currently on Daptacel, but I can’t find anything that compares Daptacel to a placebo.

    • Josh,

      Stay tuned for the next issue where we explore the ethics and legalities of a prospective vaccinated vs. completely unvaccinated study that you demand. In the mean time, can you find any anti-vaccine parents willing to enroll their children in such a study, where randomization and blinding would require they *risk* their children be vaccinated following the full recommended schedule? Or alternatively, can you find parents who want to protect their children who are willing to risk leaving their children unprotected for the duratino of the study, which must be 3-5 years if we want to properly check for things like autism?

      Check this for Daptacel, see if you find your answer there. http://www.fda.gov/downloads/BiologicsBloodVaccines/Vaccines/ApprovedProducts/UCM103057.pdf

    • Here is one study. Look at the first table, and tell us what the third and fourth column are showing.

      Also look up the what happened in Willowbrook School, where disabled children were used for vaccine testing. It is a major reason for several regulations on ethics in medical testing on children.

      Next time you bring up vax/unvax testing with placebos, explain very carefully how you would protect the children who only get placebos. Tell us exactly how to avoid the third and fourth column of the linked study.

      • So how exactly do you prove safety if you don’t test it against an inert placebo? At some point the safety has to be tested against something doesn’t it other than another vaccine doesn’t it?

        What do we tell heart patients who might die from the placebo when testing heart medications?

        What do we tell cancer patients when we test cancer medications against placebos?

        Admittedly, I’m no research scientist, but how can prove something is safe if you don’t test it against something that is inert? You’re not proving safety, only that it might be less dangerous than what you’re comparing it to.

        And like you’ve accused me of in the past, please post something current, this study is really old.

        And Daptacel is the next vaccine my daughter will be getting, but that doesn’t mean I’m done doing research.

        • And as far as L. Shaka’s post, I’ve read that study, and it doesn’t fit what I was looking for, it compares pertussis vaccines to other vaccines.

          And yes, I would be happy to let my daughter participate in said study, except for a HIB study, as she’s already had that shot.

          • Josh, if you read the first few pages of the document you’ll see, that Daptacel is the fifth DTaP vaccine to be licensed for use in the US. This is not a new kind of vaccine, it is the same acellular vaccine as the others, just a different brand. The question being answered is : Is this vaccine better or worse than the existing ones? That is why it is being compared to the existing vaccines. If it does the job just as well, and if it is just as safe, there would be no reason to deny its use. And that is what they showed by comparing the new brand with the existing ones. So long as the risk and efficacy profiles are the same, it would be approved and it did.

            http://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/preview/mmwrhtml/mm5126a5.htm

            Now if you are looking for overall DTaP vaccine safety that’s a separate thing, which we can look into.

        • Again, before you bring this subject up again educate yourself on the history of vaccine testing, and how they are presently tested. Read up on what happened at Willowbrook and elsewhere, this would be a good start. Then tell us exactly how you would perform the study so that the placebo arm suffers no adverse harm, and would be approved by an institutional review board.

          You may wish to read this study which compared children who had had no vaccines to the health of those children who had been vaccinated. The only difference was that those who had not been vaccinated suffered more vaccine preventable diseases.

          You are not really fostering much confidence in your grasp of how science and medical research works with your comments. You may need to catch up by taking some basic science, statistic and perhaps some history courses at your local community college.

          • Thanks for the sarcasm.

            I shouldn’t have to have a particularly strong grasp of science and medical research to understand the health risks associated with something I’m injecting in my child.

            All I want are straight answers from both sides of the argument (which led me to this site). Instead all I find in your “journey” is that vaccines rule and anybody who questions them is an idiot and doesn’t understand medical and research science and is killing their own children as well as other people’s children.

            I apologize for being concerned with the health of my children.

            When I go to the doctor and ask them what sort of screening they do for potential allergic reactions, and they say none, I get concerned.

            When I ask how they can tell which ingredient my child might have a reaction to, if they have one, and they say they can’t tell, I get concerned.

            So then I start to research vaccines, and you either get “why would you dare ask about them, they’ve fixed everything” or “vaccines will kill you”.

            Again, sorry I’m not a research scientist, I wasn’t aware I needed to be to try and do what’s best for MY child.

          • If you don’t have a decent grasp of basic science then you pretty have no hope of understanding anything (and not just on vaccines).

            Now if you don’t want to have the understanding of science and medicine needed to be able to understand exactly why not vaccinating is more dangerous than vaccinating you can rely on those who do have that understanding, but there is no way that you’d be able to independently come to any conclusion without developing that basic grasp.

          • It wasn’t sarcasm. You have some real gaps in your grasp of science and basic statistics.

            I know you are trying to be sincere, but you are being hampered by not understanding the concepts. Take allergies as an example: a person can only have an allergy reaction only after their immune system has been primed to the allergen. It is not the first bee sting that causes a reaction, but the second one after your immune system has over reacted.

            Therefore there really cannot be an allergy test for something a child has not been exposed to.

    • Josh, here’s the nutshell as far as I understand it. There are definitely double blind placebo controlled studies for new vaccines. I can easily show you ones for chicken pox, rotavirus, Hib, etc. But Daptacel is a combination vaccine. When it was licensed, it would have been unethical to test it against placebo because the components of Daptacel (diptheria, tetanus, and pertussis vaccines) were already licensed and part of the standard of care. It would be unethical to withhold the standard of care from the control group, rather, you have to test it against the components to make sure that it is as safe and effective (or moreso) than the components that are already licensed.

      Similarly, when we test medicines for heart patients or cancer patients, we *don’t* test them against placebos, in general. The control arm gets the existing standard of care. The trial has to show that the new medicine is at least as good as the existing standard of care.

      Now, sometimes it is difficult to go back and find the original trials for some vaccines (or chemo drugs, or heart therapies) that have been around since the early part of the 20th century, like diphtheria, etc, and more difficult still to get full texts of those. And to be honest, vaccine testing may not have been done as stringently 50-100 years ago as it is now. So, we augment our knowledge by using other means to monitor and test the safety of these vaccines, looking retrosepectively at the vaccines, and using ongoing monitoring systems, etc. When we do this, we find that they are extraordinarily safe.

      One caveat that I would caution you against is assuming that because a DBPC study is considered the gold standard, it is the only valid way to study something. When you have a lot of data, looking at a problem from different angles, the combined data may be as or more reliable than a DBPC study.

      • Nathan, thanks for making this point; it is very important, you coould not test a vaccine which is known to work vs. no vaccine, it would not pass ethical review. Furthermore, the history of the pertussis vaccine goes through the whole cell pertussis vaccine, or DTP which was in use until the acellular one DTaP was first licensed for use in the US in 1991.

        Even more, before pertussis was a disease we vaccinated against, DT (diphteria tetanus) vaccine was in use, if I am not wrong. We’d have to first establish the correct timeline, and then look through the scientific evidence going back 50-100 years as you said. At every new juncture the new formulations would have been tested against the then existing vaccine to see if they were more or less safe.

        It is quite likely that a study of DTaP vs. a completely inert placebo cannot be found.

      • Exactly. Applies to MMR too. if I understand the thread here, Chris posted a link to a placebo controlled study above for measles, and Josh complained that it was to old. Of course it is old, because the measles vaccine is old. Once that vaccine was shown to be safe and effective, it became the standard of care. You’re not going to find much in the way of DBPC studies for a vaccine, or a combination vaccine that contains that component, after the vaccine is licensed for general use, because of these ethical issues. But, there are many ways of ensuring safety in already established vaccines.

        • Josh also failed to answer the question of what was tabulated in the third and fourth columns of the first table. He seemed adverse to writing a certain word, which is a real outcome with a real measles infection.

          Plus the reason it is “old” is because laws on ethical testing of medical interventions have changed.

          • Thanks Nathan and L. Shaka, at least you attempt to answer my questions.

            Chris, sorry forgot to use the “word”, PEOPLE DIED FROM A DISEASE. Yep, some kids died from measles, in 1962. Happy?

            You use the same fear-mongering that the anti-vaccine community uses.

            I’ve never said vaccines don’t work in any of posts, not once. I’ve never said not to get a vaccine, again, not once.

            I’m concerned over the safety of vaccines for MY child, that’s all, which is why I attempt to research and then do what I think is appropriate, not blindly follow recommendations.

          • Fear-mongering is only wrong when the fear is baseless or exaggerated.

          • I was not fear mongering. The question was how do you prevent the same thing happening to children assigned to a placebo group. That was a study that actually did what you wanted, though you may disagree on the “placebo.” It shows what happened to those children who were denied protection from measles.

            Okay, I don’t answer your questions. But I am trying to get you actually think about your questions, and to adequately educate yourself to the history of testing on children. Really, please, read up on the history and legalities behind using human subject:
            Complete Vaccinated vs. Unvaccinated Series.

            Think about how one can test vaccines to your satisfaction without causing harm to children.

          • Here is some reading that might help you:

            Polio: An American Story by David M. Oshinsky

            Flu: The Story Of The Great Influenza Pandemic of 1918 and the Search for the Virus that Caused It by Gina Kolata

            The Great Influenza by John Barry (this book also goes through a history of how medicine changed early in the 20th century)

            Vaccine by Arthur Allen

            You probably will refuse to read anything by an actual vaccine researcher and pediatrician because he is hated by several who have issues with vaccines. But the biography he wrote on Maurice Hilleman is an outstanding review of vaccine development history, and goes into the ethics of testing vaccines on disabled children living in institutions.

  12. Josh,

    I understand your desire for answers; as a parent of a 4-year-old, and soon to be a father again I understand your need to minimize risk for your children as much as possible. Nevertheless, please understand that the science of vaccines is very complex and vast, and a lay person, such as you and I cannot realistically pretend to be able to review it all, and come to our own independent conclusions. At best we can look at a tiny slice, which coupled with lack of knowledge of relevant areas in medicine and imunology, will lead us to very unreliable conclusions. Anyone who is telling you otherwise is just stroking you ego to get you on their side. I don’t do that here.

    That is why we must rely on expert advice in order to be confident that the decisions we make for our children are the best, statistically speaking. Now, you may find their answer unsatisfactory, but there are limitations to what can, and cannot be done, at the moment. There is no test that can tell us if a child will have an allergic reaction to vaccines. There just isn’t. You might like for it to be, but there isn’t. In that case you have to go with the odds.

    It is true that you do not need a grasp of science to understand the odds, but you do need it if you want to review the scientific literature on your own. If you want to know what the best science to date says about the risk profile of the DTaP vaccine, regardless of which of the 5 brands currently in use your doctor uses, all you have to do is read the Vaccine Information Statement on the CDC website. You can find a copy of it here: http://www.immunize.org/vis/dtap01.pdf The odds for the expected side effects are spelled out in there.

    If you doubt the accuracy of that, you’ll have to delve into the scientific literature going back decades, but even then you might start doubting the statistics run, the people doing the studies, the older studies etc. Doubting is easy, figuring out when to rely on expert advice is harder.

    Now, do not make light of the severity of diseases such as measles. The reason peole don’t die as much today as they used to is a combination of better medical care *and* vaccines. Measles didn’t magically dissapear on its own, it was driven out by vaccines. It is not a harmless disease. 6 people died in France this year alone from it. 1-2 deaths per 1,000 infections might sound little, but if you didn’t have vaccines to keep the infection numbers low, an outbreak of the proportions of the 1989-1990 US Measles Outbreak could result in lots of children deaths. That is not fear mongering, that is fact.

    Research will always be incomplete..always! Anyone who tells you that research on vaccines is “incomplete” or “not definitive” is pulling wool over your eyes, because scientific research is always incomplete and not definitive, especially in medicine. There’s always new things to learn, given how complex the human body is. There may always be extremely rare side effects that no clinical trial can unearth. But those are all hypotheticals, maybes. What is sure, is that if you let whooping cough, measles, rotavirus, HepB etc run wild, you find yourself dealing with thousands of pediatric deaths, and suffering. That’s a fact, proven by history, not a hypothetical.

    You can choose to take the odds and not vaccinate your child; and you might even get away with it. But then you might not. No choice is absolutely safe. You have to weigh the pros and the cons, and take the less risky choice. Even that one though is not risk-free. That’s another thing that we as parents abhor, but reality is that everything carries risk, and try as we might we cannot eliminate risk for our children completely.

    I wish you the best of luck and hope that you will make the best decision for your child and family, whatever that decision happens to be.

    • Leart,

      Sorry about that – I just realized that much of my post below addressed what you wrote, and you addressed it much more eloquently. Very nicely put.

  13. Josh, you said above,

    “I shouldn’t have to have a particularly strong grasp of science and medical research to understand the health risks associated with something I’m injecting in my child.”

    I disagree. If you are skeptical about following the advice of experts in the field on this topic, or the layman’s summaries produced by the CDC, etc., then you definitely need to have a strong grasp of the science and medical research to understand these health risks for yourself. Vaccination, and vaccine risk, are complicated medical topics requiring a lot of background knowledge. If you are looking at the studies, you need a level of scientific literacy, lest you conflate a poor study with a strong one, etc.

    For an example, if my mechanic says something is wrong with my car, I’m darn well going to need to know how a car works to demonstrate to my mechanic that something else is wrong with my car instead.

    Regarding “When I go to the doctor and ask them what sort of screening they do for potential allergic reactions, and they say none, I get concerned.”

    and,

    “When I ask how they can tell which ingredient my child might have a reaction to, if they have one, and they say they can’t tell, I get concerned.”

    First, there should at least be the screening via history of whether the child has a known allergy to eggs or another ingredient, or another vaccine. In cases where there is high risk, children can be allergy tested, though recent research indicates in the case of eggs this is only necessary in the case of a history of actual anaphylactic reaction.

    But as far as diagnostic testing, why does that get you concerned? Food allergy is far more common than vaccine allergy. Yet we do not test every single child for every single child for every single possibe food allergy before they are exposed to the foods. Does that concern you as well?

    The reason we don’t, of course, is that it is infeasible or impossible to do so. And in the case of vaccines, (unlike, say, peanuts) there is great benefit to giving the vaccine that far outweighs the very small risk of allergy or reaction.

    Perhaps someday in the future we will be able to screen all children for all kinds of allergy. But that is impossible now. However, in the absence of that knowledge, we still feed them a variety of foods, as well as vaccinate, because the tiny risk of vaccination is overshadowed manyfold by the benefits.

  14. Thanks L. Shaka and Nathan for your responses, they were very helpful.

    Just out of curiosity, could you point me in the direction of some resources regarding how they determined that 2,4,6 or some other combination of months was the most appropriate to start vaccines?

    Why isn’t 1 year, 2 year, 3 year, or some other schedule? Were there trials to narrow it down to the most effective and/or safest range? Are their studies showing the difference between getting any given vaccine at 2,4,6 vs getting the same vaccine at 3,5,7 or some other time frame?

    I haven’t had much luck with searching for the above.

    • It’s pretty much a case of the earlier the better because you just don’t know when they’ll first come in contact with whatever it is the vaccine is meant to protect them from (kids have died because they got a disease before they were old enough for the vaccine).

    • You might try reading through the minutes of ACIP to see what kind of discussion is done:
      http://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/recs/acip/meetings.htm

      I have found earlier ones by using the search function at the CDC and through Google. There are also similar sites on the NHS, Australia and I have even found some from Japan (with limited English papers).

      You can also find several papers on timing of vaccines on PubMed, but you need to search for the specific vaccine (there are actually many from Japan questioning their government’s policies on diseases like mumps!). Mostly what I have found were studies trying to get measles vaccination done in earlier ages in places like India where it is more endemic. I have also seen papers trying to get infants immunized earlier for pertussis (though I believe the consensus is that it is easier to increase herd immunity with the Tdap).

      Plus to continue what Anon said: some vaccines like Hib and rotavirus are given when children are more vulnerable to the illness, so it would not do any good at a later date.

    • Good question, very hard to answer though. I freely admit this one doesn’t look like a question I can possibly answer satisfactorily. Here’s what a CDC document says about it:

      Recommendations for the age at which vaccines are administered are influenced by age-specific risks for disease, age-specific risks for complications, ability of persons of a certain age to respond to the vaccine, and potential interference with the immune response by passively transferred maternal antibody. Vaccines are recommended for members of the youngest age group at risk for experiencing the disease for whom efficacy and safety have been demonstrated.

      You can read the full thing here: http://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/preview/mmwrhtml/rr5102a1.htm

  15. This is a little too complicated of a question to answer completely, or to give a single link (or set of links) that answers them, because there are different reasons for each vaccine. For example, pertussis (and many other VPDs) are most lethal to younger infants, so it is important to get the vaccine series started as soon as possible. The only thing then to determine is if the vaccine is safe and effective at that age, and clinical trials are done to determine this. On the other hand, a vaccine for measles is less effective at ages less than 12 months, because antibodies from the mother (which do help prevent measles) interfere with the ability of the shot to work. So you have to wait for that maternally-derived immunity to wear off first. There is certainly the question of compliance – they want the vaccines to be given together at the times when babies go in for well child checks as well.

    Here is a link that answers some of the questions you have, but may not be in as much detail as you like.

    http://www.vaccinateyourbaby.org/pdfs/Vaccine_schedule.pdf

  16. Thanks.

  17. This was a friend of mine’s story: “and just so you know, this is one physician whose son is vaccinated on schedule.
    The worst conversation of my professional life? The one I had with some parents last summer, informing them of the death of their 2 children…..from a disease for which they had repeatedly declined inoculation.”

    This is worthy of criminal charges. How can these dumba** parents protect their own children so horribly, under the guise of care and concern? I can’t even get smug about this story because the children were the victims. I don’t believe they were able to give their consent on whether or not ///they/// wanted to be vaccinated or not. And now they’re dead. That is absolutely disgusting. I hope the parents learned their lesson, alas it was the hard way. I’ve only been to two forums and it already appears that anti-vaxxers are the religious zealots of the medical world.

    • It’s not just the anti-vaxers though (and most of the various forms of quackery tend to support each other to some degree).

    • Ive heard countless stories of children dead from a vaccine .. So who is the dumb**s in that situation? If parent wanna vaccinate go for it but Please don’t sit on your high horse that others are wrong. The parents who ate soooo afraid of the unvaccinated kid most likely ate themselves not vaccinated… And may never have been since when they were children some of the newly mandated ones did not exist. So shut the F up on get a clue. An unvaccinated child is not harming anyone. It is a FACT that a newly vaccinated person sheds the virus/ disease they’ve been shot up with and in my view putting unvaccinated at risk .. It’s pure speculation to assume if is irresponsible not to vaccinate … Mind your business get a clue. I think all you idiot shooting up your kids with nine shots in one drive by well baby visit are insane and idiotic for trusting so blindly. I have been given a wrong medication before and it cost Me dearly.. And that was by experts at johns Hopkins hospital.. So trust your insticts and quit judging people.

      • Ive heard countless stories of children dead from a vaccine

        Um, do you anything other than “stories”, something like actual data? Because if it was true, there would be some kind of actual set of case series in the PubMed index. The VAERS information is not sufficient since it is unverified reports, please stick to papers that actually verify the connection. Thank you.

        The parents who ate soooo afraid of the unvaccinated kid most likely ate themselves not vaccinated

        It might be useful if you actually read the article above with an open mind. It explains exactly how children were infected by an unvaccinated child.

        It is a FACT that a newly vaccinated person sheds the virus/ disease they’ve been shot up with and in my view putting unvaccinated at risk ..

        This claim requires a scientific citation. Just post the journal, title and paper that verifies that the vaccines on the present pediatric schedule shed and put others at risk that is indexed in PubMed. Thank you in advance, because I keep seeing this claim but no one ever come back with the evidence.

        Because the only two vaccines that used to do that are no longer on the pediatric schedule. That would have been the smallpox vaccine (which infected others with vaccinia, a form of cowpox), and OPV, the oral polio vaccine.

        So trust your insticts and quit judging people.

        My instincts told me as a child that the earth is flat and the sun goes around it, but I have learned better. As far as judging people, I can only go by what you write.

        The only thing I can judge is that you are reading information from people who don’t mind lying to you. Hence the title of this article. The glaring error is that vaccines are 100% effective, and ignoring the case of babies too young to be vaccinated or people with immune disorders. Another is the concept that recently vaccinated people are infectious.

        If you think we are “wrong”, then it is up to you to provide real scientific evidence to show us where we are wrong. It has to be from a reliable source that is indexed in PubMed. That includes case reports, epidemiological studies and public health department reports. Do not expect us to take you statements without question.

        Some examples include:

        Impact of anti-vaccine movements on pertussis control: the untold story

        Pediatrics. 2009 Jun;123(6):1446-51.
        Parental refusal of pertussis vaccination is associated with an increased risk of pertussis infection in children.
        Glanz JM, McClure DL, Magid DJ, Daley MF, France EK, Salmon DA, Hambidge SJ.

        Am J Epidemiol. 2008 Dec 15;168(12):1389-96. Epub 2008 Oct 15.
        Geographic clustering of nonmedical exemptions to school immunization requirements and associations with geographic clustering of pertussis.
        Omer SB, Enger KS, Moulton LH, Halsey NA, Stokley S, Salmon DA.

        JAMA. 2000 Dec 27;284(24):3145-50.
        Individual and community risks of measles and pertussis associated with personal exemptions to immunization.
        Feikin DR, Lezotte DC, Hamman RF, Salmon DA, Chen RT, Hoffman RE.

        WMJ. 2009 Feb;108(1):17-23.
        Parental vaccine refusal in Wisconsin: a case-control study.
        Salmon DA, Sotir MJ, Pan WK, Berg JL, Omer SB, Stokley S, Hopfensperger DJ, Davis JP, Halsey NA.

        Pediatrics. 2010 Apr;125(4):747-55. Epub 2010 Mar 22.
        Measles outbreak in a highly vaccinated population, San Diego, 2008: role of the intentionally undervaccinated.
        Sugerman DE, Barskey AE, Delea MG, Ortega-Sanchez IR, Bi D, Ralston KJ, Rota PA, Waters-Montijo K, Lebaron CW.

        N Engl J Med. 2006 Aug 3;355(5):447-55.
        Implications of a 2005 measles outbreak in Indiana for sustained elimination of measles in the United States.
        Parker AA, Staggs W, Dayan GH, Ortega-Sánchez IR, Rota PA, Lowe L, Boardman P, Teclaw R, Graves C, LeBaron CW.

        Measles epidemic from failure to immunize.
        Dales LG, Kizer KW, Rutherford GW, Pertowski CA, Waterman SH, Woodford G.
        West J Med. 1993 Oct;159(4):455-64.

        Economic Evaluation of the 7-Vaccine Routine Childhood Immunization Schedule in the United States, 2001
        Zhou F, Santoli J, Messonnier ML, Yusuf HR, Shefer A, Chu SY, Rodewald L, Harpaz R.
        Arch Pediatr Adolesc Med. 2005;159:1136-1144.

      • Ive heard countless stories of children dead from a vaccine

        I suppose you also believe the flu vaccine turned someone into the hulk.

        An unvaccinated child is not harming anyone

        An unvaccinated child infected with a disease very much is harming others (those too young to be vaccinated, those with a valid medical reason not to be vaccinated, those the vaccine doesn’t work on, etc along with those with parents as negligent as their own).

        It is a FACT that a newly vaccinated person sheds the virus/ disease they’ve been shot up with and in my view putting unvaccinated at risk .

        With the few vaccines where the vaccine is contagious what mostly happens is that those unvaccinated actually end up getting partially vaccinated by coming into contact with the vaccinated person.

        Also as Chris mentions they aren’t used any more in much of the developed world.

        It’s pure speculation to assume if is irresponsible not to vaccinateed.

        Only if you can’t understand basic science would you think it speculation.

        So trust your insticts

        Our instincts are adapted to surviving in the savannahs of Africa with very limited technology and don’t necessarily translate well into a world based on science and technology (of course our brains are highly adaptable so we can overcome them, but it takes effort).

        and quit judging people.

        Speak for yourself hypocrite.

        • “those too young to be vaccinated, those with a valid medical reason not to be vaccinated, those the vaccine doesn’t work on”

          Meaning the older unvaccinated child is not the only one putting your vaccinated children at risk.

          I agree. Don’t judge.

          • No, but it is the one where negligence is causing the risk (and you don’t need everyone vaccinated to get herd immunity, just the vast majority, which we can get if people without a medical reason not to be vaccinated would stop f***ing opting out).

  18. My concern is that so many base their antivaccine views on the belief that they are sparing their children from autism or asthma. Call me crazy, but I believe all children are blessings from God, not just the ones without neurological problems. I’d rather have an otherwise healthy, living autistic child (that I may have to care for for the rest of my life) than a “normal” child who died from a preventable disease. I was just reading up on thimerosal, and even though it was removed from children’s vaccines in 2001, cases of autism continue to increase. I was concerned about vaccines and whether or not I should have my child vaccinated before he was born, and two things struck me: 1) the facts (including the one just noted) do not support vaccines being the cause of autism. Certainly there are more people today who choose not to vaccinate their children as there were in 2001, so why is the number of autism cases not declining? 2) I could never live with myself if my child contracted a preventable disease. Maybe autism is caused by what we’re putting into our children’s bodies, but how about we start looking at what parents are putting into their kids on a daily basis. How can anyone complain about what’s in a vaccine if they’re not equally as conscious about the crap they’re allowing their kids to eat and drink? Maybe its environmental factors, genetics, or something else. But with at least 20 studies done on the subject, all finding no connection to vaccines and autism, you’d think the case would be closed.

    • You’re incorrect. Jenny McCarthy and a few on the fringe insist vaccines cause asthma. Most non-vaxers and selective-vaxers do not think this and in fact get irritated when people like yourself declare that we do. Vaxing or not, both sides comes with sets of risks, and we have chosen the set we are more comfortable with. If your child were to get measles, there’d be a 1-2 chance in 1000 of death. Look up the chance of death in a vehicular accident and justify why you don’t think twice about putting your child in a car when public transit has a much lower death rate than riding in passenger vehicles, such as your car or truck.

      • Of course you get a lot more benefit from putting your kid in a car (ability to get them places they wouldn’t otherwise be able to get to) than from not vaccinating them (parent getting to feel self-righteous, though some parents value that above all else).

        • You could achieve the same benefit by taking public transit while cutting the chance of death (among other fantastic benefits).

          • That would require public transport to go where you want to go (and also run when you want to go).

            Cars also aren’t as dangerous as many think they are (the death rates are very much skewed to drunk drivers, those who are sober or being driven by someone sober have much lower risk of dying in an accident than you’d expect if you just took the raw death rate for car transport).

  19. Are vaccines causing more food allergies in our children?

  20. My step daughter is unvaccinated and since I’ve been with her father, I’ve yet to see her 100% healthy. She contracted Pertussis 6 months ago and has had a persistent cough ever since. She also has bowel issues involving frequent diarrhea, mucusy stools, blood-tinged stools and gas. She even started having headaches recently. The issue is that even though her mother and father have 50/50 custody, she lives with her mother. She refuses to give her modern medicines and believes only in herbal and homeopathic medications.

    We are constantly in fear that our child is going to hospitalized for these diseases and illness, or worse, and yet there seems to be NOTHING legally that we can do. Her school doesn’t require vaccinations, her doctors won’t vaccinate without both parent’s consent, and her mother is in complete control of diet. Is there any information, advice or ideas you have to help us gain at least some control of our daughter’s life? I know her mother believes she is doing the right thing, but our sick little girl proves otherwise. Please help us!

  21. “We do not ask that children be vaccinated solely to protect others, and it would be wrong if that was the case.We ask that children be vaccinated so, first and foremost, they would be protected.”

    As my daughter’s mother, these decisions are mine and mine alone. Quit butting into my parenting space unless I have the right to demand you never put your child into a vehicle. I am more concerned about the number of children harmed in vehicle accidents that wouldn’t have happened if they weren’t allowed in cars and trucks, but it’s not my position to tell you not to put your child into a vehicle despite the higher chance of dying in a vehicle accident than IF your child actually caught the measles. It’s not my spot to tell you to never take your child to a hospital despite the 100,000 people a year who die from hospital-acquired infections.

    You probably feel like you’re the good guy more concerned about my child than I am. Well you’re not. I, as my daughter’s mother, along with her father, have done our research and accepted the set of risks we feel more comfortable with. Since I have an autoimmune disorder and can not get vaccines myself (two separate doctors came to this conclusion), this isn’t a decision we made lightly, but it is the one WE, this child’s parents, are comfortable with. When illnesses go around, like whooping cough is right now, guess what. Our daughter and I stay home unless it’s absolutely necessary to go out. He goes to work, comes home, and changes promptly. We can’t eliminate the risks, but this is the set we are more comfortable with.

    I would never dare to be self-centered enough to say that others should vaccinate their children for my sake. Part of living in America is accepting that freedom comes with others being allowed to make decisions we ourselves might not make. That goes for you too. The people who are pro-vax to the point they believe children should be removed if not vaxed have a very dangerous mindset. If the government were to have the power to mandate what we inject our children and ourselves with, where would it stop? Are you truly comfortable with the thought that a vaccine could be developed and rushed to market un a matter of months without long-term testing and you be mandated to receive it, like a guinea pig, and no right to sue if you are harmed by it? Are you comfortable with being forced to inject your daughters with Gardasil despite the harm, including deaths, that have led to it being banned in many European countries? Are you comfortable with the FDA, which thinks ammonia-sprayed beef byproducts and chemical-laced foods are so safe we have no right to know we’re eating it, deciding this sort of thing for us?

    • You’re obviously comfortable with spreading lies about vaccines, which makes me doubt the entirety of your story. When you grow up, get married and have real children, I suspect that you’ll be less cavalier about their health. In the meantime, cover your mouth when you cough, and wash your hands after you use the bathroom, just like your Mom keeps reminding you. You might think she’s a nag, but it’s for your own good.

  22. Before I even finished this artical I have several problems. First if you can get sick from what you are vacinated aginst what is the point? I read an artical written my a lady who is very anti – non vaccination. Claiming her daughter who was sick in the ER with Mumps then also caught measles in the ER from an unvaccinated child. I am guessing her child was vaccinated for both. After reading several simillar stories I do wonder. ” Does it even matter?” You vaccinated your child so they would not catch this illness.. then my unvaccinated child came in contact with it… one would think your child would not get it. But the truth is that vaccines are not 100% effective even when not exposed to an un vaccinated person who contracted an ilness.

    “Measles is an extremely contagious viral disease that, before the widespread use of measles vaccine, affected almost every child in the world.” It is amazing any of us where born, it would seem judging by the number of people in my family who had no vaccines ( parents, grandparents, greatgrand parents, great aunts and uncles….) That I was even born! They should have all died from measles!

    “parents have to be held responsible, because they willingly choose to put the community at risk.” this is “also false” parents of unvaccinated children are not “held responcible” for the ilness of the unvaccinated. I like this argument tho it just makes me want to ask.. if you come in contact with the virus and become ill anyway, How is that my fault?

    I also hear that unvaccinated children can harber an illness with out becoming sick, or become immune. But if the virus is still in their system it can still spread. But isn’t that the way it goes with any illness? Maybe not. They do say things can spread before symptions present.

    Its good to see all the view points and make your own choices, But after many months of research and talking to nurses, I have come to the conclusion that I wish my mother had listened to my father 27 years ago and not vaccinated me. Althought I am in good health and am very rarley ill. I do not know if I will vaccinate my children or not yet. But chances are I will not.

    • So how to keep measles away from a baby who is under a year old before they can get the MMR?

      What part of the vaccine does not work for everyone (about 1 to 5%) or that measles is contagious before symptoms did you not understand? Or that measles is both very contagious and dangerous did you not understand?

      • In that case only 1-5% of the vaccinated will become contract the measles from an unvaccinated child. The parents of the vaccinated child have very little to fear then. And if i read correctly this person did mention that some diese is contagious before symptions appear. I am not vaccinated. And can not even remember the last time I had a cold. I am an annomally.

        Is it also not true that a person can be fighting an illness and never present symptions, yet still infect others?

        • Is it also not true that a person can be fighting an illness and never present symptions, yet still infect others?

          It is true someone could harbor the illness without knowing it and infect others. Also recent >measles outbreaks have been almost all unvaccinated:

          The majority of European cases (90%) were amongst adolescents and adults who had not been vaccinated or for whom vaccination history was not reported.

          Alex mentions all of this, and yet thinks the MMR is more dangerous than measles.

  23. An artical I think you all should read. You may also want to look up these studies on your own. And if you know german read the newsletter.

    There is much proof that unvaccinated childern are healthier. Please also ( on your own so you know the trusted source it came from rather than relying on this post and wondering where the info came from. ) Look at the information on the problems vaccinations cause.

    Also, what scares me more than anything the pro vaccine people wrote about the unvaccinated is that there is a link between autisem 1 in 88 children have some form of autism. Autism is preventable in most cases.

    Here is the link to the artical I refered to earlier. http://www.whale.to/vaccine/unvax.html

    • Unvaccinated children die more often than vaccinated children, how is that more healthy?

      As for the problems vaccines cause, I hear someone got turned into the hulk by a flu vaccine, though haven’t heard of any autism cases caused by vaccines (not that it matters).

    • Scopie’s Law:

      In any discussion involving science or medicine, citing Whale.to as a credible source loses you the argument immediately …and gets you laughed out of the room.

      (Also, Alex/A whatever, get a spellchecker, the word is spelled “article”)

  24. I just want to make sure you all know that vaccines do not prevent the illness 100% and once one child is sick, it can be passed on to others. I myself was vaccinated for whooping cough as a child. Then when i was 20 someone in my work place (also vaccinated) became ill with a terrible case of the mumps. Everone was required by the company to recive a new vaccination. MMR. A few weeks later I became very ill with Whooping Cough. It was terrible. I asked the doctors about it but then concluded that if I had a recent booster then the tests must be incorrect it must not be whooping cough but rather something acting like it.

  25. I don’t have children, and one of the reasons I’m glad about that is the vaccination dilemma. I’m not anti-vaccine. In its purest form, it may be a reasonable thing to do. The problems – and there are problems – seem to be a) the amount of vaccines very young children are now being exposed to, b) the amount of crap that’s IN the vaccines, along with the vaccine itself, and c) the cover-up – and there is a cover-up – about the number of children/babies damaged by the vaccines.

    It made headlines when little Leo Blair received the mmr ONE SHOT AT A TIME – despite Tony loudly trumpeting the three-in-one shot was perfectly safe.

    Western medicine gets some very basic things wrong. It took them years to accept that you should wash your hands before examining women in labour, to prevent puerperal fever. It took them up to sixty years to ‘provably’ find a correlation between smoking and cancer. I wouldn’t trust them on their statements that there’s no correlation between vaccines and autism, say – let alone the other illnesses children are suffering now after vaccination.

    And let’s not forget that they are hand-in-glove with the billion dollar drug companies. That’s not exactly an unassailable moral position to be in. There are so many stories now about children damaged after vaccinations. I personally know one family who received compensation, and an admssion that the vaccines were to blame, after their child was left badly brain-damaged after a second lot of shots. That was over thirty years ago. Nowadays, that family probably wouldn’t have received the compensation nor the admission, if some of the stories you read are true.

    Why not keep providing the necessary shots, but take out a lot of the crap (usually preservatives?) that’s in them; and space them further apart. (And forget the three-in-one crap.) It seems that the only reason they’re NOT doing this is …. all together now – MONEY! Why deprive a billion dollar, bully-boy industry of more sheckels to rub together? when the only people who’re paying the price now are a few hundred thousand children or so … more, if there IS a connection between autisim and the mmr ….

    So maybe stop demonising those who haven’t vaccinated their children, and start demonising the drug companies – who could easily provide a safer, more spaced vaccination ‘programme’ – but won’t, because, hey – that would cost too much money…

    Instead, they keep discovering more and more vaccinations – and more and more ‘guinea pigs’ – aka the children who are damaged by the ‘serums’ – seem to be paying the price.

    • On a), vaccines aren’t a very big load on the immune system compared with what the children get naturally from germs around the environment (and the vaccines are weakened so as to be considerably less harmful).

      On b), what crap? There isn’t anything dangerous being put into vaccines along with the active ingredients (and if they need preservatives to not become dangerous or ineffective then they damn well should have them, it’s not like we’re using dangerous substances for that purpose).

      On c), what cover-up?

      Oh and you might want to read http://depletedcranium.com/smoking-and-cancer-how-did-we-miss-that-one-or-did-we/ on how western medicine figured out what smoking did a lot earlier than you, it’s almost as if the scientists had working brains (which sadly you appear to lack).

      I’m not anti-vaccine.I suppose you’re not anti-honesty either?

      • It is also sad how faceless anons berate others for asking questions. If we all blindly followed others the world would be a sad place. This woman asked some questions and you faceless anon belittled her.

        I am sorry Chloe for this faceless individuals lack of compassion. I fall in the middle of the debate. I give most vaccines with the exception of a few. I research them myself and talk to a number of doctors about each vaccine. I also read the full inserts on the vaccines and pubmed articles, ect. I am educated and well informed on the subject.

        It is people like this anon that ruin the whole vaccine debate. HE/SHE is the one lacking working brains to treat another person with that type of disregard. Hence why he is ashamed to show who he really is. Ignore anyone who isn’t comfortable enough showing their face. ;)

        • I also read the full inserts on the vaccines and pubmed articles, ect. I am educated and well informed on the subject.

          Then you will have no trouble answering my two simple questions:

          1. What must you read and understand on the official VAERS website before using the VAERS database? Please state what you must read and understand before clicking on the button.

          2. What is the cost difference between treating measles versus preventing measles in a population? Be sure to show citations that are comparable to this:

          J Infect Dis. 2004 May 1;189 Suppl 1:S131-45.
          An economic analysis of the current universal 2-dose measles-mumps-rubella vaccination program in the United States.

        • “I also read the full inserts on the vaccines and pubmed articles, ect. I am educated and well informed on the subject.”

          Thank you! I’m so sick of people like Chloe claiming that there’s a coverup of vaccine risks. As you demonstrate, the risks are spelled out on the vaccine inserts – a pretty feeble coverup, eh?

  26. The person who wrote the ‘Babble’ article clearly hasnt done their research. This is sadly the kind of thing that gives parents who dont vaccinate a bad name.

    I know parents that have chosen not to vaccinate who have literally spent years researching the subject. Its so sad that the same cant be said for EVERY parent, those who vaccinate AND those who dont.

    A parent must seek out ALL the information that is out there, for and against vaccinations.
    You cant just take others experiences and examples and base your decisan around that.

    I am always hearing things like ”I heard vaccines cause autism, and contain formaldehyde, no way am i vaccinating my kid” or ”My doctor said vaccines eradicated polio and smallpox, and that if i vaccinate my child they will have less chance of catching whooping cough or measles, thats why i choose to vaccinate”.
    Where is the RESEARCH here? HOW can parents choose to vaccinate, or not to vaccinate, without takeing the time to TRUELY make an informed decisian rather than just basing their decisian on what someone else tells them?

    i was working full time when i found out i was pregnant with my first daughter, that didnt stop me researching vaccines every spare second that i had. I would often be up till after midnight reading, evaluating, studying, even though i had work at 6am every morning till 4 in the afternoon – so i dont beleive that ‘I just dont have the time to research’ is a good enough excuse.

    Until a parent (or blogger for that matter) can say they have literally sought out and thoroughly evaluated every source available to them, for AND against vaccinating, i do not beleive they are in a position to argue the point EITHER way.

    http://www.nytimes.com/2007/01/16/health/16immu.html

    http://www.vaccineriskawareness.com/More-Educated-Mothers-Are-Less-Likely-To-Vaccinate

    • It was easy for me. About the time my now adult children were born there was a measles epidemic in the USA that eventually killed over 120 Americans. Kind of hard to say the MMR was dangerous, when it was clear that measles was deadly. Here is what real research looks like (and really, they are not hard to read):

      Impact of anti-vaccine movements on pertussis control: the untold story

      Philosophic objection to vaccination as a risk for tetanus among children younger than 15 years

      Vaccine. 2012 Jan 5;30(2):247-53.
      Lack of association between childhood immunizations and encephalitis in California, 1998-2008.

      Pediatrics Vol. 126 No. 2 August 1, 2010 (doi: 10.1542/peds.2009-1496)
      Lack of Association Between Acellular Pertussis Vaccine and Seizures in Early Childhood

      Pediatrics. 2010 Jun;125(6):1134-41.
      On-time vaccine receipt in the first year does not adversely affect neuropsychological outcomes.

      Pediatr Infect Dis J. 2010 May;29(5):397-400.
      Lack of association between measles-mumps-rubella vaccination and autism in children: a case-control study.

      Pediatrics. 2009 Jun;123(6):1446-51.
      Parental refusal of pertussis vaccination is associated with an increased risk of pertussis infection in children.

      Pediatrics, February 2009, Vol. 123(2):475-82
      Neuropsychological Performance 10 years after Immunization in Infancy with Thimerosal-Containing Vaccines

      Am J Epidemiol. 2008 Dec 15;168(12):1389-96. Epub 2008 Oct 15.
      Geographic clustering of nonmedical exemptions to school immunization requirements and associations with geographic clustering of pertussis.

      Am J Prev Med. 2006 Sep;31(3):244-51. Epub 2006 Jul 13.
      Parents concerned about vaccine safety: Differences in race/ethnicity and attitudes.

      Am J Prev Med. 2005 Aug;29(2):105-12.
      Parent attitudes toward immunizations and healthcare providers the role of information.

      Arch Pediatr Adolesc Med. 2005 May;159(5):470-6.
      Factors associated with refusal of childhood vaccines among parents of school-aged children: a case-control study.

      Pediatrics. 2004 Jul;114(1):187-95.
      Children who have received no vaccines: who are they and where do they live?
      Smith PJ, Chu SY, Barker LE.

      I hope the helps.

      • 120 died out of a population of 380 million? That’s not an epidemic. More people die each year by falling out of bed. Fear the great motivator.

        • Measles is the kind of disease that kills about one out of every thousand where nutrition and healthcare are good which implies a lot more than 120 infected.

        • And none had been vaccinated. There would have been many more if the vaccine had not existed. This means that the vaccine is much safer than the disease.

          Plus eugenics was never a good idea.

          • Plus eugenics was never a good idea.

            I wouldn’t go that far, certainly what was done in the name of eugenics last century was not good but the idea itself has some merit if you do it in a non-coercive way.

  27. I know parents that have chosen not to vaccinate who have literally spent years researching the subject.

    Yet never actually understanding the subject (or even comprehending the basics).

    Look, the research has been done and it shows vaccines work (mostly) and are safer than the disease they protect against. It also shows that not vaccinating in a very big risk. There’s a reason the scientific community isn’t anti-vaccine (the big problem with correlations with education is that they being well educated doesn’t necessary mean a person actually has a clue, there’s no reason to suspect an English PhD allergic to science is any more qualified to make decisions on vaccines than a high school student doing biology).

  28. Everyone has a right to be informed and the point is that there are great risks and benefits to BOTH sides however I personally choose to not vaccinate because it is unnatural for my one day old child up to 6 years to recieve 48 injections of mercury ally minimum cow intestines formaldehyde and many MANY MANY other DEADLY and harmful chemicals while they are still just developing their immune systems. We are told our babies cannot eat solid foods because their digestive tracts can’t handle it that young but yet their tiny bodies can handle a crap load of chemicals?? Do any of you know how much aluminum or mercury or formaldehyde is in each injections you give your children and how much of those chemicals cause neurological and auto immune disorders? Who benefits the most from vaccines? The pharmaceutical companies who make billions…… But if you go read their meeting notes on the mercury placed in vaccines you will find that almost all board members at the pharmaceutical companies state and I quote: ” I won’t give my grandchildren vaccines until conclusive research is done on thimerisol AKA mercury” so please get the facts! What would you do if your child had a life long illness caused by a vaccine or you spent gone in jail for SIDS only to find out your baby really died from their vaccine. You watch what you put in your own body but do you know what is in the 48 vaccines you rapidly inject your kids with? What about the first shot given at only 12 hours old????? Do you know what hep b is and how you get it? Sex or blood and I don’t many infant newborns shooting heroin or turning tricks on the corner do you?

    • Please tell us which vaccines on the American pediatric schedule are only available with thimerosal. Do not say influenza, because four of the eight approved for children do not contain thimerosal.

      Do you know how much aluminum is in your food? Do you know that it is the most common metallic element on this planet’s crust, so is in the soil food is grown in. Do you know how much formaldehyde is produced in your body as part of normal cell metabolism.

      If you wish to be taken seriously you will now provide the title, journals and dates of the PubMed index papers that show that vaccines cause more issues than the diseases. Just show us that the Hib vaccine is more dangerous than the meningitis caused by the Hib bacteria.

      And as far as money, please show that it is cheaper to treat the diseases than to prevent them with vaccines. There is a measles epidemic in Europe, and last year one in four cases needed hospital care. I know from personal experience that just spending a day in a hospital bed costs almost $3000, but that is increased with medication, ventilation equipment and the like. So please post the documentation that show that treating measles is much cheaper than providing a child two doses of a MMR vaccine.

    • What would you do if your child had a life long illness caused by a vaccine or you spent gone in jail for SIDS only to find out your baby really died from their vaccine.

      Vaccine. 2007 Jun 21;25(26):4875-9. Epub 2007 Mar 16.
      Do immunisations reduce the risk for SIDS? A meta-analysis.

  29. If an unvaccinated kid is sick, how can they infect a vaccinated kid of said disease……doesn’t that defeat the whole purpose of vaccines!? Is in not the unvaccinated kids that are at risk from vaccinated kids….?

    • Had you bothered to read through this thread you would have noticed we already explained that, namely that vaccines aren’t 100% effective.

      I mean even getting those diseases probably isn’t going to be 100% effective at preventing a recurrence and the vaccine is a weakened version of the disease (and often dead) so why should we expect it to not be less effective than the disease (the reason we prefer vaccines to the disease is because the vaccine has less side effects).

      Though thanks to herd immunity we don’t need 100% effectiveness of vaccines to send diseases extinct, merely the vast majority.

    • Have you even read the article and the comments? If so, then answer the question that has been asked more than once (at least four times):

      How do you protect a baby under the age of one from measles? They are too young for the MMR vaccine.

    • “If an unvaccinated kid is sick, how can they infect a vaccinated kid of said disease……doesn’t that defeat the whole purpose of vaccines!? Is in not the unvaccinated kids that are at risk from vaccinated kids….?”

      You may have noticed small creatures around in the world – they’re called babies. Some people really care about such “babies” and wish to keep them alive. Since babies are too young to be vaccinated, people who care about keeping babies alive try to ensure that these babies don’t come into contact with diseases – and the best way to do that is to make sure that people who are old enough to be vaccinated, do get vaccinated. I hope I’ve made this simple enough for you.

  30. Awesome rebuttal. I have always been pro-immunizations for these reasons. I just had never organized them so nicely! THANKS!

  31. http://healthimpactnews.com/2012/italian-court-rules-mmr-vaccine-caused-autism-why-is-this-story-blacked-out-of-the-us-media/

    Wonderful article, written by Dr Mercola!!! please read the entire article for all the information. It also discusses how Dr Andrew Wakefield was indeed correct in his assumptions, and provides a lot of information linking autism to gut flora and intestinal health and vaccines.

    • So lawyers decided to conclude Wakefield was correct?

      Well, then, that settles it. After years of scientists all over the world proving that Wakefield was wrong starting with Dr. Brent Taylor in 1999, to Dr. Mady Hornig in 2008 and most recently by Dr. Uno in Japan… all of that work is overturned by a court in Italy. Wow, that is just fantastical.

      I think in the future, Ms. Cook, that the next time you require medical attention please avoid all medical doctors, and just drag yourself to a law firm. They will fix you up just fine. If they are confused, just tell them that you believe that medical science can only be confirmed in the legal arena, and they should know that!

  32. WOW Chris!!
    You are one ignorant, close-minded a ndrude person!! All I did was post a FACTUAL article…nothing sensationalist, or biased, or inflammatory, or pushing an anti-vaccine agenda, and I never said anything rude….just presenting some facts and different information for people to read and come to their OWN logical conclusions.

    I never said anything against vaccines or insulted anyone or attacked anyone as you have to me based on my one post…..The Italy ruling was ONE small part of the article, have you even read the rest?….and why wasnt that made news here?

    I will not be posting here any more, nor reading any more comments.
    Its obvious you are too ignorant (and stupid, perhaps you received too many vaccines!!) to be able to read a research-based factual piece and come up with any type of intelligent response or rebuttal.

    Its fine if you don’t agree with something….that is the beauty of the land we live in; we all have our own perceptions and realities. But why you have to be so hostile and rude is beyond me.

    I was here for information and intelligent discussion but obviously that is beyond you and not the focus of this page. I will not waste my time here anymore.

    You give all pro-vaccine people a bad name!!!

    • Did I hurt your feelings by not believing anything said by Mercola.. Especially about the other bit where Wakefield’s study had been replicated, when in fact it has not been independently replicated. In reality case studies on adults and PCR results from his friends do not count as replications.

      You can expect to be ridiculed if you believe that one ruling from a minor court in Italy can reverse the scientific consensus. Did you even bother looking at the studies by Brent Taylor, the doctor who took up the Royal Free offer to expand the Lancet study that Wakefield refused to do. Did you bother even reading about Mady Hornig’s study, and that she had been paid by SafeMinds for her autistic mice study, but she did try to faithfully replicate the Lancet study with one big difference: she told the truth to the ethics committtee. Did you even click on the latest study from Japan?

      You should be ashamed for promoting Wakefield’s bad science, and worse the fraud he perpetuated.

      Its fine if you don’t agree with something….that is the beauty of the land we live in; we all have our own perceptions and realities. But why you have to be so hostile and rude is beyond me.

      You are welcome to your own opinions, but not to your own facts. If you want to be on the Internet, I suggest you grow a backbone, because my response the implication that a legal ruling carries more weight than the scientific consensus was just a gentle sarcastic stab at a ridiculous notion.

      If you really want to discuss and be taken seriously, you will come prepared with the title, journal and dates of the PubMed indexed studies that show the MMR vaccine presently in use in the USA and UK has more risk than measles, mumps and rubella. Note that I am being specific on the MMR vaccine, because there are several on this planet.

    • Thanks Ann for revealing just how close-minded you are. Apparently, you are so allergic to facts that you have to run away if there’s a chance that you’ll hear some. Go back to the anti-children forums where facts are banned. You’ll be a lot happier there.

  33. Very good post. I am facing some of these issues as well.

    . There are some great evaluations there really is the following http:
    //www.gamespot.com/dragons-dogma/reviews/dragons-dogma-review-6379024/ and http://dragondogmareview.
    com/ – just lookin to help!

  34. “One need look no further than the recent measles outbreaks in the U.S. which were mostly traced back to unvaccinated people, even though, if you look at the population as a whole, the people unvaccinated against measles make up only a small portion.”

    So I am a bit confused here….the measles began with an unvaccinated person, but did not just spread to other unvaccinated people… people vaccinated against the measles were among the infected with measles? And the majority of people affected in the end were vaccinated people since only a small portion are unvaccinated? And the outbreak was MOSTLY traced back to unvaccinated people… does that mean it was also traced back to a small number of vaccinated people? I thought vaccines prevented one from catching an illness. What’s the point of a vaccination if it doesn’t actually protect you from the disease?

    I still have no hard opinion one way or another, just at the stages of educated myself before I get pregnant.

    • DP: Vaccines aren’t perfect – some vaccinated people are susceptible to the disease they were vaccinated against. Suppose there’s a population of 10,000 people. 9500 of them are vaccinated, but because the vaccine is imperfect, 950 of them are susceptible to the disease. If an epidemic occurs among this population, the 500 unvaccinated people will get the disease, and so will the 950 vaccinated but still susceptible people. “Aha” say the antivaxxers – “of the people who had the disease, more were vaccinated than unvaccinated,” but this is, of course, deceptive – only 5% of vaccinated people got the disease, while 100% of the unvacinnated did; it’s just that there are far more vaccinated people than unvaccinated.

    • DP:

      And the majority of people affected in the end were vaccinated people since only a small portion are unvaccinated?

      I am sorry, but this is confusing. Where are you getting that data? From the most recent summary by CDC, Measles — United States, 2011, April 20, 2012 / 61(15);253-257, there were 222 cases of measles, and “166 were unvaccinated or had unknown vaccination status.” How is the 56 who were vaccinated a “majority” out of 222?

      Also, that report says that “27 (14%) were aged <12 months", in other words babies. The MMR is given after a baby's first birthday. The risk of SSPE goes up the younger a child is when they get measles, so some of those twenty seven babies may not grow up. How do you propose to protect a baby from measles?

      There is further reading about the odds in Health Consequences of Religious and Philosophical Exemptions From Immunization Laws, Individual and Societal Risk of Measles, where it says:

      On average, exemptors were 35 times more likely to contract measles than were vaccinated persons (95% confidence interval, 34-37).

      What’s the point of a vaccination if it doesn’t actually protect you from the disease?

      Because a 95 to 99% chance of not getting measles is much better than actually getting measles. Measles is so infectious that before the 1960 almost every child had measles before they reached their fifteenth birthday, with about one in a thousand being permanently affected through either disability or death.

      No, it is not 100%, but nothing is perfect. To think that it needs to be perfect is a Nirvana Fallacy.

  35. I actually had to get my childrens batch numbers off their vaccines due to the severe adverse reaction and whoops, the vaccines had about 1000 times the amount of thimerisol than it was supposed to have. We got a sorry about that response. Where is you legal outrage now? You cannot sue the company? Greater good right? Who do you think will end up supporting all these damaged children? Numbers of damaged children are still rising but it is for the greater good right? So manufacturers are perfect right? Cars do not break right? Vaccines should be immune from OSHA, EPA, etc… right? Wake up, and guess what, no genetic markers for Autism but unusually high concentration of mercury, how could it happen? Must be religion right? Well, I cannot fix stupid. Greater good? It could be, it should have been that way, now our kids do not have a chance, sadly the world will pay the price not the Devils who poisened these kids. You may want to leqarn that what your grandparents called food, we call organic today. Wash your food

    • Perhaps you should have helped Sallie Bernard a decade ago when she could not find a DTaP vaccine batch with thimerosal:

      Subject: Thimerosal DTaP Needed
      From: Sally Bernard
      Date: Wed, 27 Jun 2001 00:01:50 -0400
      Yahoo! Message Number: 27456
      Onibasu Link: http://onibasu.com/archives/am/27456.html

      Hi all:

      A group of university-based researchers needs several vials of the older DTaP vaccine formulations which contained thimerosal for a legitimate research study. If anyone knows an MD who might have some of these vaccines or knows where to get them, please email me privately.

      Thank you.

      Sallie Bernard
      Executive Director
      Safe Minds

  36. So why does my doctor tell us not to vaccinate? How come he didn’t vaccinate his own kids? Does he know something that the other doctors know?

  37. Why have the Autism rates skyrocketed as the number of vaccines increase?

    They haven’t. The number of diagnosed Autism cases have skyrocketed as vaccines increase. Look through some old medical records sometime – feeble-minded used to cover most learning disabilities, that or ‘idiot’, ‘imbecile’ or ‘moron’ or ‘backwards’.

    So the question should be:

    Why has the number of autism cases skyrocketed as the number of vaccines increase? It’s really as simple as this: We decided to call a set of ‘a, b and c’ characteristics as autism at the same time we figured out that ‘Hey, look, A LOT more children survive to adulthood if we give them a weak form of the disease as a routine thing’.

  38. Basically I just want to know how does the body KNOW how to fight illnesses if it has been vaccinated against everything? To my way of thinking, the vaccine is fooling the body and the body doesn’t learn how to fight. The vaccines are weak forms, and the body does a weak response to it. So at some future date, does a minor illness become a big illness because our bodies don’t know how to fight it?

    • That is a very good question. The minor illness stays a minor illness.

      For instance, cow pox (Vaccinia) was always a minor illness. Milk maids got a rash on their hands, and then recovered. But it had educated their immune system enough that when they encountered the more dangerous but related virus, smallpox (Variola), their bodies knew how to fight it off.

      The vaccine is not “fooling” the body, it is making it smarter. Just like you are immunized against a bad math grade when you do your math homework before the test (math is one subject you must actually do in order to learn it).

      For a bit more information visit http://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/vac-gen/howvpd.htm .

      To get a fuller and more intensive education go to http://www.virology.ws/ and take the courses that are listed on the top menu bar like “Virology 101.” I just listen to the three podcasts, even if I don’t understand all of it I still learn lots.

      One small correction to this phrase ” vaccinated against everything”… we are not vaccinated for “everything.” There are many more minor infections we get that there are no vaccines for. Some are too minor to deal with (like the over 200 viruses that cause the common cold), and some are too difficult to make a vaccine for, like bacteria.

      Bacteria are more complicated than viruses, and have ways to get around immune systems. This is why a kid can get a strep throat infection, recover after antibiotics and then get it again just couple weeks later! You cannot actually get an immunity from the tetanus bacteria, which is why the vaccine is designed to educate your system against its toxin, tetanospasmin.

      Not to mention parasites like malaria and such. If you get a chance go to the “This Week in Parasitism” and listen to the hookworm story at TWiP #22 from Feb. 2011, it is fascinating.

      Carl Zimmer is a science writer that has written some books on microbes for the non-scientist (I’m an engineer/math geek). The books that I have read that you might find interesting are Microcosm: E. coli and the New Science of Life and A Planet of Viruses. I have not read his Parasite Rex, but it is on my list.

      PS: I know first hand about the circulating strep infections. On the worst vacation we ever had my younger son and I got strep. Which were dutifully passed on to the rest of the family a week later. But my younger son got it back from one of his siblings after he first recovered, but we did not know that since he had no symptoms. So after the other two kids got better, he would unknowingly infect them again. This went on for three months. The doctor finally had all five of us checked with a long test (not the quick strip test), and found that all three kids had the strep bacteria, but only two had symptoms. We parents did not get it again because we were a bit better at hand washing (I think I orignially first got it from the guy coughing next to me on the airplane). So he put all three on antibiotics and stopped the cycle.

    • Vaccines are like playing the odds in Vegas. A certain number of people will be harmed by them. It’s a fact. However, a larger number of people are hurt by the disease. Also a fact. A lot of the diseases that are vaccinated against are the diseases that hurt (and kill) a significant portion of the population.
      As a parent you are told to go through one of two doors. The first is to vaccinate and the second is to not-vaccinate. There are risks to each. The risks of vaccination are scientifically proven to be less than non-vaccination. Therefore, I would as a parent of 3 small children, vaccinate each and every time. They might have an adverse reaction to the vaccine, but the odds are much higher that they’d have a bad (or fatal) reaction to the disease. The only thing not vaccinating does is rely on everybody else taking the risk of vaccination.

      • I never gave vaccines another thought until the chicken pox one. While I know a very, very small amount of children have a bad or fatal outcome due to complications, I don’t believe a vaccine should have been developed against an “annoying” illness. This is one illness that was minor that now has potential to be a big deal when booster shots lag and it makes a return. And I speak as one whose husband has never had chicken pox (verified). We need to be vigilant that he isn’t around someone with chicken pox since now that he is an adult, it is more likely to be a major illness and not an itchy annoyance.

        • I thought the same way until I to deal with chicken pox for a month with three children from age six months to six years (two weeks with four year old, then two weeks with the siblings he infected). I did not get any sleep between the six year old being so sick he wet his bed most nights to the baby never being able to sleep for any length of time (and before this she was sleeping through the night).

          It was not merely “annoying” it was terrible to see kids suffer with dozens to hundreds of open itchy wounds that could become infected with bacteria. One of the kids in the kindergartener’s school almost lost a limb to necrotizing fasciitis when chicken pox swept through the school. This was the year before the vaccine was available.

          The baby suffered so much, and some pox were very close to her eyes. And because she was so young she has a higher chance of getting shingles, and getting them as a young adult. And now that she has started college, the possibility is even greater since she is pushing herself to get good enough grades to enter a department that has a limited number of seats. Stress increases the chance of shingles. (and it didn’t help when she talked to one of her professors on the bus coming home who told her about getting shingles when she was in college… argh, my kid has enough to worry about!)

          If your husband has not had chicken pox, then he would be better off when kids get their boosters and lowers the chance that he would be exposed. But enough of anecdotes and opinion here is a review paper: Varicella Prevention in the United States: A Review of Successes and Challenges.

  39. Because I personally react poorly to vaccine, even today, I requested, and my doctor agreed to, staggering my children’s vaccinations to no more than one in a four week period. This way it minimises the reactions (which they inherited from me) and they are still vaccinated on schedule.

    So why can’t others see this middle ground? I’d far rather a day or three of fevers from vaccine, than a lifetime of illness, death, or my illness causing another’s death.

  40. There are a growing number of people who are experiencing the truth of vaccine side effects, me being one. You can’t tell someone who experienced a child growing at a above average, exponential rate, who suddenly after being bombarded with vaccinations developed autism, that vaccines are safe. I have read all the comments in this thread and the people who support vaccines are very passionate about it, because the information being passed along is what is taught at medical school and passed down from our government. How can our own institutions and government be wrong? Sheesh….really? There is more to vaccines than just prevention, and this is also something that no one here can convince me otherwise. Wash your hands, stay away from large numbers of people, and don’t ever put any needle in your body, unless it’s an emergency. Doctors don’t know everything, and vaccinating your child while they have no right to say no, is completely wrong. When my kids get old enough to know all the things that go along with vaccinations, then they can do it to themselves. I find it ominous, and intentional that immunizations are given to children. How better to ensure that they get it, than convincing a population of parents that the ingredients in vaccines are safe, and should accept it as a safeguard against diseases. You are going to get sick…your body is designed to heal and battle illness. A strong immune system can be attained without subjecting your body to foreign man made matter, and many studies have been done to confirm this point. If I listed the amount of times our government and it’s 3 letter agencies have lied and fudged data to ensure population control, this thread would be many gigabytes unreadable. Call me what you want…I’ve heard it before. I’ll just yell back……..”WAKE UP!!!!!”.

    • Never mind that your kid was autistic even before being born.

    • Some of us had normally developing children who regressed after getting a real disease (before the vaccine as available). Why should these parents be ignored?

      Of course, all you have to do is provide the actual evidence that the vaccines cause more neurological damage than the diseases with actual factual studies indexed on PubMed. Do tell us exactly how the MMR causes more damage than measles, which causes real encephalitis once out of every thousand cases of measles.

      Just give us the real data. And that does not mean raw VAERS reports. One step would be to tell us the PubMed indexed study dating before 1990 that alerted Andrew Wakefield to an issue with the MMR vaccine after it was approved in the USA in 1971. Surely he had something other than wads of UK taxpayer funds promised to him by Richard Barr to support lawsuits against one of the three MMR vaccines licensed in the UK in 1988. Come on, give us the actual data to make us believe it was something other than the over half a million equivalent in American dollars that Wakefield was paid.

      • Hi Chris, I see you are an active poster on here and I certainly appreciate you calling out the real fear mongers by asking them to provide actual and factual citations of their anti-v claims. By getting to the bottom of this thread, I have not seen one person in the 2 years of the conversation who has actually provided a citation with science that shows vaccines are even within 1% as dangerous in relation to the diseases themselves. The people you have confronted have posted and ran away without answering your valid challenge for data. Clearly you have a well developed thought process, and I appreciate your posts here.

        I have a baby coming in the next 7 weeks, and my sister does not vaccinate her 3 children. She believes in all the Fisher/McCarthy hype, yet I will definitely be vaccinating my child(ren). She is 15 years younger than me, over emotional, and does not rely on evidence, rather conspiracy theory and psuedo-science. Let’s just say that someone who has had 3 kids by their early 20′s hasn’t had the world experience and knowledge to understand what they are actually doing to society.

        Meanwhile, I have yet to have the conversation with her to inform her that her kids can not and will not be allowed around my newborn baby. We have a large family and live in the same town, but I will not risk exposure of my newborn to unvaccinated kids until it has at least completed it own regimen of vaccines and been cleared by my pediatrician. That may be several years of missed Christmas/Thankgivings/Birthdays, etc., as I’m waiting to get confirmation from the doctors as to how long I have to wait. There is a lot of opinion on the internet, but I will go with the advice of the doctors I have chosen, rather than the autism arguing, disease promoting internet trolls. So, it is sad she will choose to be left out of all the family events where certainly my wife and I will be hosting, given our economic position in relation to the rest of the family, but that is one of the consequences she has chosen to live with – she just doesn’t know it yet.

        I am looking into research as to whether parents of unvaccinated children also carry risk as extended carriers of diseases. I don’t know yet, or really truly suspect that they do, but I want a professional answer. We will be asking the doctor about this when my wife gets the call back she requested later today. I haven’t found anything online to even read on the parents of these kids posing a risk in the meantime, so I will wait. I just wanted to put it out there that if there is a risk, then I will not even be able to visit with my sister herself, let alone her kids until my child is fully protected, possibly for several years. If you have come across anything on this topic, please do pass it on.

        Meanwhile, to the anti’s on this thread, you are one of the reasons my child will have a medically screened nanny to help us at the house instead of day care of any kind, and attend private schools. Luckily I work from home, so that will mostly be to assist me with the daily duties I may not be able to handle during work hours, conference calls, etc. Also know this; I don’t even let my DOG play with other DOGS who don’t have their shots. So I wish you all the best, I hope your children live a long time and never get sick or get anyone else sick – just stay completely away from me and my family here in the 21st century with your unvaccinated dogs, children and bogus, unsupported theories. If you want to challenge me, then go ahead and as Chris has said 19 times in this thread “Please post the title, journal and dates of the PubMed indexed papers that show…(anything relevant to your claims whatsoever!!)” If you can’t post evidence to back up your claims, then shut up and go get your kids their shots unless they are allergic or medically unable to be vaccinated.

        • I forgot to qualify one thing about myself. I have never received a flu vaccine because I tested positive for an allergy to the vaccine. I have had all my other shots and adult boosters, and I do get the flu once every few years. My child will be vaccinated against the flu provided there are no allergies present when they are old enough to be tested.

        • I’d expect that if the parents are themselves unvaccinated and have never had the supposedly mild diseases themselves that they would end up as carriers but suspect that most of them have either been vaccinated or already had the diseases.

        • Thank you very much, Matt.

          My son had a medical contraindication for pertussis vaccination as an infant, and I did ask parents if their children were vaccinated. If not, we did not socialize. Fortunately none were relatives.

          I am sorry that it comes from your family. And with a baby coming, it is within your rights to insist that adults have received a Tdap booster. All you should have to say is that your baby’s health is more important than their beliefs. Check out this article with all sorts of links:
          http://shotofprevention.com/2013/06/17/the-public-supports-parents-who-take-pertussis-precautions/

          Perhaps that might make your sister start thinking. Also, I keep thinking back to a very nasty nasty cold/cough I had in the 1980s before I had kids. I now suspect it was pertussis, but I cannot go back and check.

          I am happy to say that everyone in our family has received a Tdap, including my now 24 year old son who only got the DT instead of the DTP as an infant.

  41. You’re going to source that silliness about FDR from real sources, not LewRockwell.com. Then, you can provisionally keep posting here.

  42. There are peer-reviewed medical journals from THIS YEAR which state that no studies of the safety of the current vaccination schedule have every been done, nor are there any immediate plans to have them done in the future.
    Also, another peer-reviewed article from the Contemporary Pediatrics Journal discusses the lack of un-biased studies on both sides of the vaccine debate, discussing that many if not all of the studies done to ‘prove the safety of the vaccines’ were funded by those who would seriously loose profit if a negative correlation between the vaccines was found.

    That being said, if a parent doesn’t want to vaccinate their child, question them and see if they have done actual research into the diseases, ask where they found their research, ask them if they have a serious reason why they won’t vaccinate!
    If they have done their research, and still fear for the safety of their child, who are you to say they are misguided?

    • DeLong, Gayle-”Conflicts of Interest in Vaccine Safety Research” Accountability in Research: Policies & Quality Assurance- Mar/April 2012 issue

      I know Orac has his own opinions of DeLong, but in this paper she points out that there are biases present in all Vaccine research.
      Basic college courses which discuss how to find legitimate research and how to conduct research which is un-biased and as accurate as possible would lead anyone to come to these conclusions.

      Foxhall, Kathryn-”IOM confirms safety of current immunization schedule” Contemporary Pediatrics-April 30, 2013

      The wording is tricky on this one, if you read the title and move on (as many without access to online journal databases would HAVE too) it appears as if the Institute of Medicine is saying that their schedule is indeed safe, however if you read the article:

      “Although each new vaccine is evaluated in the context of the overall immunization schedule that existed at the time of review of that vaccine, elements of the schedule are not evaluated once it is adjusted to accommodate a new vaccine. Thus, key elements of the entire schedule-the number, frequency, timing, order, and age at administration of vaccines- have not been systematically examined in research studies”
      also
      “The committee also says it cannot be sure whether its list of health concerns about the schedule is complete and that some things some stakeholders worry about, such as immunologic neurologic, and development problems, don’t have well-understood etiologies”
      and
      “..although most children who have an adverse reaction to an immunization have a preexisting susceptibility, evidence is limited about subpopulations who may be at higher risk of such reactions, such as those with family histories of autoimmune disease or allergies or those born prematurely”

      • If you would rather believe Gayle DeLong instead of those folks who have actually gone to medical school, then go ahead and show up at a financial services office for the rest of your medical care.

        My favorite part about Ms. DeLong’s little paper was when she decided that every child who has had speech/language intervention was automatically considered autistic. A revelation that would have surprised the deaf/hard of hearing specialists at my kids’ elementary school (a regular ed. school that at that time had the program for kids who had hearing issues, a program that got smaller and smaller and smaller… apparently there were fewer kids becoming deaf from measles, mumps and Hib).

        “There are peer-reviewed medical journals from THIS YEAR which state that no studies of the safety of the current vaccination schedule have every been done,”

        That you did not bother to cite. That is very interesting. Were they also written by business school professors, or were lawyers.

        Any way, please tell me how the authors of the following economic analysis are trying to profit:
        Economic evaluation of the 7-vaccine routine childhood immunization schedule in the United States, 2001.

        And then do the same for each of the papers listed in this document, including directly quoting the conflict of interest from the paper revealing the pharmaceutical company that is going to profit from the results:
        Vaccine Safety: Examine the Evidence

      • Alli:

        Foxhall, Kathryn-”IOM confirms safety of current immunization schedule” Contemporary Pediatrics-April 30, 2013

        The wording is tricky on this one, if you read the title and move on (as many without access to online journal databases would HAVE too)…

        I found it, it is a free news article on a commercial medical site, not a journal, and definitely not peer reviewed: IOM confirms safety of current immunization schedule. It turns out that Ms. Foxhall is a journalist. The second part of that page as this section: “Graduated licensing huge factor in reduced number of crashes.”

        It does contain a link to the actual IOM report that was released last January. That is a good read, even the press release. Here is pertinent paragraph from that press release (you can get to from Ms. Foxhall’s article, since this place only allows two links):

        Some people have suggested comparing vaccinated children with children in “naturally occurring” populations of unimmunized individuals, such as certain religious communities. With less than 1 percent of the American population refusing all immunizations, however, it would be very difficult to recruit enough willing unvaccinated participants, the committee concluded. It can take tens of thousands of study participants to discover uncommon health problems. Moreover, these populations tend to be much less diverse ethnically, racially, socio-economically, and genetically than the general population, and because such factors can influence health, it would be difficult to determine if differences between the study groups are the result of vaccines or these other factors. The costs of conducting this kind of study or a randomized controlled trial likely would be prohibitive.

  43. Chris,
    I welcome your view point, but I do wish you didn’t have to be condescending. I’m just a parent trying to do effective research to make the best decision for my child, as are all of the others who post and comment on this blog, whichever side of the debate that they fall on.

    And to clarify, I did not mean that I take DeLong’s opinion on actual medical matters, but I do believe that she is able to discern what is and is not bias free research. The medical community are definitely not the only ones who conduct research studies, other fields also know that science.

    I found the Journalist’s article in a peer reviewed medical journal, which means that her article was indeed peer reviewed before it was published there, wherever you may have found it as well, that may not have been the case.
    I do not refute the study would be tricky, but she does also state at the end that the IOM calls to other organizations to try and resolve this problem.
    As a person who has studied psychology, I do not disagree that the type of study they discussed would be absolutely unethical, as well as very difficult. I just agree that a viable solution needs to be found, so that both sides of the vaccine debate could be satisfied.

    • “I did not mean that I take DeLong’s opinion on actual medical matters, but I do believe that she is able to discern what is and is not bias free research”

      Really? Even her bit about every SLI was autistic?

      “I found the Journalist’s article in a peer reviewed medical journal, which means that her article was indeed peer reviewed before it was published there, wherever you may have found it as well, that may not have been the case.”

      Do tell where. I would be very interested in that, especially since those journals publish things like editorials and letters, which are not peer reviewed. I just found the actual article, so your phrase “wherever you may have found it as well” does not make sense.

      Do answer my question on to the financial profit the CDC has to gain by doing studies. I am very interested in that. I am at a loss as to how saving taxpayers real money by reducing disease is a form of “profit.” I am just a lowly engineer, so you really need to explain that to me.

      Also go through those articles in the link Vaccine Safety: Examine the Evidence, and tell me who profits from the answers. Since I have a kid with a disability due to seizures from actually getting a disease before a vaccine was available for it, I really am interested on how vaccines are so evil compared to the diseases. Because we paid those hospital bills, and they would have paid for lots and lots of vaccines!

      • Me: “Because we paid those hospital bills, and they would have paid for lots and lots of vaccines!”

        And the neurologists’ bills, plus the years of speech therapy not covered by insurance… the lifetime trust because he many never become employed due to his permanent disability. Just because there was no vaccine for that particular disease.

        So, seriously, tell how preventing the diseases covered by the present American pediatric schedule is more expensive than dealing with those diseases. Explain to me how more costly it is to give each child two MMR vaccines than to treat about one in ten who end up in the hospital with measles. Tell me how expensive the DTaP is compared to the cost of keeping an infant alive who has pertussis… and on and on. Bring in real scientific studies.

        • Chris, really I’m only on this board because I am LOOKING for the medical links and things that may convince me that vaccination is the best thing for my child. And I am terribly sorry about your child, but my husband’s family has a history of severe neurological impairments as well. His brother displayed some signs of slowed development when he was very young, and then received a round of immunizations when he was two. Immediately he dropped off all forms of communication that he had developed, and he now he is diagnosed with severe mental retardation, severe autism, and a seizure disorder.
          Before you go off on me, I do not think that the immunizations CAUSED these problems in my brother in law, but I do know that it is thus far not possible to do a study which discerns what predispositions to problems a 2 month old baby may have.
          So I believe I am making the smart decision for MY CHILD by trying to do some research, and wait a bit before I decide what to do. Rather than just walk in and give him vaccines with aluminum, polysorbate 80, and formaldehyde (yes, I already know how ‘low the amounts of those ingredients’ is. I argue that I worry about EVERY little bit).
          If I choose to wait until my child’s blood brain barrier is more developed, I believe that is my prerogative. He does not go to daycare, and I exclusively breastfeed him. I do not feed myself the crap that is in our shelved products either, as I know many of the things I object to in the vaccines can be found there as well.

          • In this bit of thread conversation I have been the only one to provide real citations, where you only hinted at some. The only title you gave was to a news story. This is what makes me doubt the sincerity and rigor of your research.

            So go through all the papers listed in Vaccine Safety: Examine the Evidence, and then come back and explain the financial interests of all of the authors.

            Then go and provide the same level of scientific evidence to prove to me the risks of the vaccines are greater than the diseases. And not because of ingredients that in the order your gave: are ubiquitous in the environment so you consume lots, is an ingredient food like ice cream and is produced by your body’s own metabolism… all encountered each day in quantities much greater than any vaccine.

            I also have some reading suggestions for you in regards to historical notions on developmental disabilities, and how to evaluate science:

            Not Even Wrong by Paul Collins (father to an autistic son, and literary historian)
            Unstrange Minds by R.R. Grinker (father to an autistic daughter and anthropologist)
            Lies, Damned Lies, and Science by Sherry Seethaler

  44. Chris, I didn’t read all your posts, just some. Do you have children?

  45. Chris, How is pumping aluminum into a BABIE’S bloodstream a good idea? Honestly, you must not have children. Again, I’ll chose not to vaccinate and come out on top. No allergies, chronic disease, Infection, ADHD, autism, etc. Out of the 5 kiddos on my street alone, he is the only unvaaccinated one and most definitely the healthiest. Again, pump YOUR kids full of poison and then get back to me. Your point about the measles holds NO water by the way. Yes, 1 or 2 out of 1,000 can have complications. How many actually get it a year though? Exactly. How many died last year? EXACTLY.

    • Please tell me which vaccine is given directly into the bloodstream?

      By the way the plural of anecdote is not data. Now do an unbiased study of the children in your entire city and get back to us after you get it published in a good journal. Just don’t do what Gayle DeLong did and assume every single child who gets speech language intervention at a school is automatically considered autistic.

  46. I’ll nurse until they are 3, only eat organic healthy food…not packaged frankenfood, take supplements and again…we will see who comes out on top! Not go get that flu shot Chris. Get two while you are at it! I’d love to see how “healthy”” you are. You are probably an overweight, sickly diseased troll .

    • So your kid is not yet three years old? There is still lots of time for things to wrong, like getting sick or becoming malnourished. Also, your child may not be protected by community immunity depending on what schools they attend, or your social network. There is now an outbreak of measles in Southern Alberta, Canada.

      I should warn you that breastfeeding is not a guarantee against illness. I breastfed my children way past their first year, and a couple past age two. They all got chicken pox, and the baby was only six months old (one year before the vaccine was available).

      They have all had their vaccines, and the only child who has issues is the one who suffered from seizures from a now vaccine preventable disease. The two who did not get seizures were high school honor students. The youngest was on the Dean’s List for her first year at the university, which she entered with enough credits just one term away from being a junior. She spent the last two years taking classes at a community center, which earned her both high school and college credit. This is only an anecdote, it seems for our family not getting seizures from a now vaccine preventable disease is better for academics.

      Now, please provide a PubMed indexed study from a reputable qualified researcher that shows greater risk of harm (like seizures) from a vaccine on the present American pediatric schedule than its intended disease or diseases. Some examples of what would qualify would be:

      Vaccine. 2012 Jun 13;30(28):4292-8. Epub 2012 Apr 20.
      The combined measles, mumps, and rubella vaccines and the total number of vaccines are not associated with development of autism spectrum disorder: The first case-control study in Asia.

      Vaccine. 2012 Jan 5;30(2):247-53.
      Lack of association between childhood immunizations and encephalitis in California, 1998-2008.

      Pediatrics Vol. 126 No. 2 August 1, 2010 (doi: 10.1542/peds.2009-1496)
      Lack of Association Between Acellular Pertussis Vaccine and Seizures in Early Childhood

      BMC Public Health. 2011 May 19;11:340.
      Congenital rubella syndrome and autism spectrum disorder prevented by rubella vaccination–United States, 2001-2010.

      Pediatrics. 2010 Jun;125(6):1134-41.
      On-time vaccine receipt in the first year does not adversely affect neuropsychological outcomes.

      Pediatr Infect Dis J. 2010 May;29(5):397-400.
      Lack of association between measles-mumps-rubella vaccination and autism in children: a case-control study.

      Pediatrics, February 2009, Vol. 123(2):475-82
      Neuropsychological Performance 10 years after Immunization in Infancy with Thimerosal-Containing Vaccines

      PLoS ONE 2008; 3(9): e3140 doi:10.1371/journal.pone.0003140
      Lack of Association between Measles Virus Vaccine and Autism with Enteropathy: A Case-Control Study.

      Pediatrics. 2007 Nov;120(5):e1269-77.
      Is childhood vaccination associated with asthma? A meta-analysis of observational studies.

      Vaccine. 2007 Jun 21;25(26):4875-9. Epub 2007 Mar 16.
      Do immunisations reduce the risk for SIDS? A meta-analysis.

      “You are probably an overweight, sickly diseased troll .”

      Why do you think insults are a valid form of evidence, or a way to maturely discuss the issues? You would be better off by providing some actual science, but please read it to make sure that it really says what you claim to say. Unlike the webpage that Ms. Jones linked to here.

      Instead of being a “lemming” by regurgitating stuff from certain websites, please go and do the research in the actual scientific literature yourself. Stay away from all websites except the index of global medical research (PubMed). You will find several recommended papers and books in my comments on this page. If you do not want to pay for a paper (some cost over $30), then go to the medical school librarians and they will help you get access to their subscribed journals (from personal experience, they are very helpful to the lay public).

      If you do not have the educational background to evaluate the information in the scientific journals, take some classes in science and statistics at your local community college. I did this, and I found the basic statistics and biology (in which has had several developments since I graduated from college) to be very helpful in reading the literature.

      Good luck with your endeavors. Plus be very careful with your precious child. I know all too well what happens when things go wrong. You do not want your house invaded by lots of paramedics/firefighters and a trip in an ambulance is not fun! Then there were the multitudes of medical appointments, therapy sessions and very long and tiring meetings with the special education programs (Individual Education Program, IEP, as prescribed by the Individuals with Disabilities Education Act, IDEA). All because he caught one illness before its vaccine was not yet approved. Le sigh.

    • Dear Lemmings,

      First and last warning: I will not tolerate personal insults on my blog; if this happens again your comments will get deleted.

  47. Hi. I was wondering if someone could answer my query on one of the ingredients in the vaccines; aluminum. The EFSA has concluded a tolerable weekly intake of aluminum of 1mg/kg bw per week for an adult and this is based on ingesting so it has to be processed through the mucous membranes etc.
    What amounts of aluminum are in a typical 8 week old babies DTaP/IPV/Hib, PCV & Rotavirus vaccines that they receive in 1 day and what research has been done to study it’s effects, if any?

    Thanks in advance.

  48. Thank you for the links. Upon studying these I have noted some unanswered concerns and am yet to be convinced. The claim that the amounts of aluminum in vaccines are insignificant in comparison to what is in our food is somewhat misleading. The amounts of aluminum we ingest, only 0.25% is absorbed into circulation, I remember this from one of my biomedical lectures several years ago.
    [http://www.alz-disease.org/downloads/Aluminum1.pdf]
    The aluminum we take in from vaccines is absorbed 100%. The claim that aluminum is easily excreted doesn’t make sense as aluminum is supposed to be there as an adjuvent, so it is supposed to stay in the body to boost the immune response. Other research has shown that aluminum in vaccines stays in the body for up to 7 years; [Aluminum toxicity - Medscape]. Research in animals has also shown that the aluminum is retained in animals (it attaches to the antigens) and not only is it retained but part of the adjuvent aluminum travels by the macrophages in the brains of animals. I could go on about this and it’s effect when binding with flouride in the brain but to cut a long story short, to inject a baby from 8 weeks with these known neurotoxins where there are so many unanswered questions, leaves me feeling at best uncomfortable.

  49. I can’t stand people saying that if an unvaccinated person spreads a disease to someone, they should be held accountable. HELLO…what about all of the millions of babies and children who get vaccinated with live virus and then shed it and people catch that? Should we sue them too? Whooping cough and mumps and measles are not on the rise because people don’t vaccinate. They’re on the rise because people are being vaccinated with live viruses in these vaccines and then spreading those diseases due to shedding of the live virus. Pertusis, chicken pox and MMR vaccines contain live viruses as well as the nasal spray flu vaccine. It’s shameful how people are so ignorant to blame the unvaccinated when it’s actually the vaccinated who are spreading these diseases.

    And if you really want to see where the smoking gun lies, according to Penn State university’s center for infectious diseases, their studies conclude that, “the (pertussis) vaccine may be contributing to the observed rise in whooping cough incidence over the last decade by promoting B. parapertussis infection.” http://www.cidd.psu.edu/research/synopses/acellular-vaccine-enhancement-b.-parapertussis/?searchterm=parapertussis

    According to Merck’s vaccine insert at item 5.8 Risk of Vaccine Virus Transmission, they state, “Vaccine recipients should attempt to avoid, to the extent possible, close association with high-risk individuals susceptible to varicella for up to 6 weeks following vaccination. In circumstances where contact with high-risk individuals susceptible to varicella is unavoidable, the potential risk of transmission of the varicella vaccine virus should be weighed against the risk of acquiring and transmitting wild-type varicella virus.
    Excretion of small amounts of the live, attenuated rubella virus from the nose or throat has occurred in
    the majority of susceptible individuals 7 to 28 days after vaccination.” http://www.merck.com/product/usa/pi_circulars/p/proquad/proquad_pi.pdf

    It’s ironic that the author states, “Even in developed countries such as the U.S. about one out of 1,000 children with measles will get encephalitis (a dangerous inflammation of the brain), and one or two out of 1,000 will die.” According to the Vaccine Adverse Event Reporting System (VAERS) one of the side effects from the measles, mumps and rubella vaccine in any combination is: Encephalopathy or encephalitis (within 15 days). http://vaers.hhs.gov/resources/VAERS_Table_of_Reportable_Events_Following_Vaccination.pdf

    I”ll use your words to tell the vaccinating parents to keep burying your heads in the sand.

    • I can’t stand people saying that if an unvaccinated person spreads a disease to someone, they should be held accountable.

      Why the hell shouldn’t they?

      I mean they are engaging in a an activity that puts other people who they don’t give a say in the matter at risk (and to make matters worse it doesn’t even benefit them).

      HELLO…what about all of the millions of babies and children who get vaccinated with live virus and then shed it and people catch that? Should we sue them too?

      Much less common and less dangerous than catching the real thing (the viruses used in the vaccines are weakened for a reason) and the use of live vaccines is reducing due to concerns over it causing the disease (in places that still have endemic disease live vaccines can be a good idea if they are easier to administer since they’ll prevent more cases than they cause but if you have very few cases they can be the cause of most of the incidents of that disease, usually that’s the time they get phased out and replaced with dead vaccines), I should also note that a more common effect of live vaccines is that the immunity becomes contagious without causing sickness.

      Whooping cough and mumps and measles are not on the rise because people don’t vaccinate. They’re on the rise because people are being vaccinated with live viruses in these vaccines and then spreading those diseases due to shedding of the live virus.

      I’m pretty sure we’re not using live viruses in the measles vaccines (I don’t think we ever did).

      Besides, why is it that the disease rate is the opposite of the vaccination rate? Why if it were the vaccines causing the disease does the disease rate go up when people stop vaccinating?

      It’s shameful how people are so ignorant to blame the unvaccinated when it’s actually the vaccinated who are spreading these diseases.

      There’s this thing called reality and it doesn’t agree with you.

      According to Merck’s vaccine insert at item 5.8 Risk of Vaccine Virus Transmission, they state, “Vaccine recipients should attempt to avoid, to the extent possible, close association with high-risk individuals susceptible to varicella for up to 6 weeks following vaccination. In circumstances where contact with high-risk individuals susceptible to varicella is unavoidable, the potential risk of transmission of the varicella vaccine virus should be weighed against the risk of acquiring and transmitting wild-type varicella virus.

      Of course when you weigh the risk of the vaccines against the risk of the wild type virus (which has not been weakened) there are very few cases where the vaccine isn’t the best option (those who are at high risk would be affected by the wild type a lot worse).

      According to the Vaccine Adverse Event Reporting System (VAERS) one of the side effects from the measles, mumps and rubella vaccine in any combination is: Encephalopathy or encephalitis (within 15 days).

      The death rate from that vaccine is at at one in a million (and probably quite a bit safer) while the death rate from the wild-type disease (as you so helpfully quoted) is one in a thousand (and that’s assuming good nutrition and healthcare, in the developing world things are a lot worse).

      BTW: If we can believe VARES we must accept that the flu vaccine turned someone into the hulk.

      • The same holds true for three other groups:

        1) those who’ve actually received a vaccine, but didn’t actually receive immunity from the disease which the vaccine is claimed to protect against (i.e. the “oops, it didn’t take” crowd)

        2) those who’ve been advised, by sufficiently qualified medical practitioners, to not receive a given vaccine due to anticipated adverse health effects (e.g. allergy)

        3) those who’ve not yet had a “reasonable” opportunity to have received a vaccine

        Anon, since you’re so safety conscious, you should also expand the scope of individuals that you should “hold accountable”. If you’re truly concerned about risk to yourself and others, it’s NOT a person’s intent that you should be focusing on, but rather their impact.

        • Criminal law requires intent (most of the time anyway) not merely action and none of your three categories would satisfy such a requirement.

    • “Pertusis, chicken pox and MMR vaccines contain live viruses as well as the nasal spray flu vaccine.”

      Citation needed showing that pertussis has now been reclassified as a virus.

      Citation needed that the MMR vaccine spreads measles, mumps and rubella.

      Also, the only vaccines I think that actively shed viruses that are dangerous were the OPV and vaccinia, neither of which are on the present American pediatric schedule. The varicella vaccine is mild, and the risk is limited to certain subset of the population, and it definitely beats spreading full chicken pox.

      And some food for thought:

      Impact of anti-vaccine movements on pertussis control: the untold story

      Individual and Community Risks of Measles and Pertussis Associated With Personal Exemptions to Immunization

      Pediatrics. 2009 Jun;123(6):1446-51.
      Parental refusal of pertussis vaccination is associated with an increased risk of pertussis infection in children.

      Pediatrics. 2010 Apr;125(4):747-55. Epub 2010 Mar 22.
      Measles outbreak in a highly vaccinated population, San Diego, 2008: role of the intentionally undervaccinated.

  50. There are quite a few vaccine advocacy trolls on this site! What a joke, using fabricated science to get people to pump loads of toxic shit into their babies, all in the name of “protection” and herd prevention. In 20 years, we are going to look back on the current vaccine schedule and ingredients and realize how barbaric and dangerous they really are. I’m not against vaccines, just against the current ingredients and deliver methods of most vaccines recommended by the AMA which now is cleary an arm of the pharmaceutical industry.

    • I’m not against vaccines

      Translation: I’m completely against vaccines but I’d like to come off as someone who isn’t completely unreasonable.

    • ” toxic shit into their babies”

      Do tell us which ingredient in the DTaP is more toxic than tetanospasmin, provide the verifiable documentation from actual scientific literature. And also tell us why a string of insults is a valid form of evidence.

  51. And yes, blah blah blah, by Chris and the other vaccine advocacy trolls, “where is your citation, where is your studies, etc…” Look, we all know you work either for the CDC, the AMA, or the big pharma, you guys are present on every website that questions the efficacy or safety of vaccines. Our own pediatrician admitted that vaccines could be made without many of the ingredients that anti-vaccine advocates consider dangerous, but it’s not cost effective and decreases the storage life of vaccines. Ha, ok, so put a bunch of preservatives and other toxic shit into vaccines all in the name of the almighty dollar and we should be cool with that?! If I had the choice to pay more for a safer vaccine, I would. I just don’t want the cheap shit. OK, go ahead you trolls, blast me… The funny thing is, everyone who reads this post and your posts will see through your bullshit, you’re just a bunch of [ABUSIVE LANGUAGE DELETED BY SITE ADMIN]

  52. I am extremely educated on all points of discussion pros cons diseases cause effect severity treatments whether it can be treated every ingredient in each vaccine and the toxicity levels if any as well as the fact that not one study has been done on human children to prove that vaccines are safe. I’m an injury child I choose not to vaccinate my child Im also following rules like nursing till after two and no daycare etc to limit exposure. However I highly recommend all parents researching and making an informed decision. For there are many auto immune reactions if your prone to this as I am and my children are. So to say that many who do not vaccinate have the characteristics you list above you are not informed properly and are very ignorant to the real reason why most parents choose not to vaccinate or delay. Try reading the vaccine book by dr sears and interviewing those who have lost children to vaccine injuries or even lost themselves. Like me….. DTP caused me encephalitis alone with major neuro issues now. Who is behind research for vaccine but the very companies who make them. And why are these vaccine makers not allowed litigation but rather a tax on vaccines to fund the vaccine injury program and families injured by them….?? There are always two sides. Vaccines are not old enough to even know how they effect us! How many things do we push first and find kill us later like ciggarettes alcohol flouride and even flame retardants! How bout some unbiased fact based research before questioning and doubting the ones who god forbid actually question these money hungry vaccine makers

  53. Also the toxic level they gave for aluminum had zero research done to get that number: the number was actually based on the highest level given in an injection of a vaccine. However they will tell you that IV aluminum is toxic at a level far less than vaccine injectiblrs. Let’s also discuss the fetal matter which is from two unborted fetuses from 35 years ago. New research shows that this injected into us as humans creates an autoimmune responses for our bodies to attack ourselves due to foreign human DNA. This isn’t a big risk with the cow chicken and pig components however there is a risk of catching their diseases such as the outbreaks of certain vaccines carrying the monkey diseases and pig diseases over the last 55 years (major from 1956-1965 and again in 1980 and again in recent rotavirus vaccines which had to be recalled). PLEASE EDUCATE YOURSELF BEFORE MAKING A LIFE CHANGING DECISION FOR YOUR CHILDREN! You would research a movie or new clothes or even a new phone they want but you wouldn’t research injections you put DIRECTLY into their bloodstream (which no vaccine components have any research data of direct bloodstream reactions and precaution because NOONE studies it) NOT one study has been conducted in humans even infants receiving this ACTUAL DRUG….. My child is now 22 months old and since 14 months has been speaking in intelligible sentences counting to 20 had a vocab of 200 plus words knows 15 colors and 5 letters and when she gets a cold…. Her NATURAL immune system kicks in as it WAS DESIGNED BY GOD (she gets low low grade fevers minimul symptoms and is as pleasant as can be!) WITHOUT TOXIC LEVELS OF CHEMICALS ATTACKING HER AT 6 pounds and one minute old (like hep B….. As my baby was hooking and shooting dope the day she ws born) btw only woman who have hepB At. Birth should vaccinate their baby at birth otherwise you can wait until they become sexually active as a teen…. So just to make a few points here 1: research and even delay you have the choice if your nursing and at home 2: read most vaccines clearly identify that side effects are MS, autism, neurological illnesses, sudden infant death syndrome, and many other life altering effects (if they cannot handle the toxicity and combinations given so quickly) 3: don’t be ingnorant or rude. People are more likely to stop and listen and consider if you just present the facts and the facts are: NO RESEARCH HAS BEEN PROVEN THAT THE CHEMICALS IN THE VACCINES ARE SAFE: only small
    Studies of non humans documented by the very companies who made them. Look up the original docs on thimerisal and how the pharm comp hid their own research of how the use if this was toxic and harmful…… For more than 5 years before they actually banned it (and used it for over 50…..)

    • It is a good thing you live where there is plenty of community immunity.

      Please tell us which is better for a baby to get, be sure to provide some verifiable scientific documentation to support your answers. Make sure it is from a qualified researcher, Dr. Sears does not count (he neither qualified nor reputable):

      A DTaP vaccine or a pertussis infection?

      A DTaP vaccine or a diphtheria infection?

      A DTaP vaccine or a tetanus infection?

      An HiB vaccine or a haemophilus influenzae type B infection?

      An IPV vaccine or a polio infection?

      A HepB vaccine or a chronic hepatitis b infection? By the way, hepatitis b is persistent in the environment. It is also spread by casual contact through saliva and blood. So do you also plan to keep your toddler away from all other children, and make sure that none of the things she touches or mouths does not have another kids’ saliva? Or blood from a cut?

      A rotavirus vaccine or a rotavirus infection? (trust me, those are nasty, the kid had rivers of poo)

      A pneumococcal vaccine or a pneumococcus infection?

  54. Maybe I am missing something…shouldn’t a vaccinated child having nothing to fear from an unvaccinated child? After all, they are now protected from serious infection with said vaccine. Or isn’t that the case?

    The unvaccinated child is the one at risk since they are not protected.

    Right or wrong?

    • Because vaccines don’t work 100% of the time so to protect the 5% or so the vaccine doesn’t work on you need enough people covered by the vaccine for the bug not to have enough hosts to spread to.

      • “…Because vaccines don’t work 100% of the time so to protect the 5% or so the vaccine doesn’t work on you need enough people covered by the vaccine for the bug not to have enough hosts to spread to….”

        Those poor 5% bast*rds! They most likely don’t even know two things:

        1) that they’re not even protected!

        2) that they’re infecting the rest of the herd!

        Despite their ignorance, shame on them for putting so many others at risk!

        • Never mind that we can tolerate 5% not protected by the vaccine without a major outbreak (since there won’t be enough susceptible people to sustain an outbreak).

    • What is your plan to protect children under age one from measles, mumps and varicella?

      What about babies under two months old from pertussis?

      Then what about persons going through cancer treatment?

  55. “Measles is an extremely contagious viral disease that, before the widespread use of measles vaccine, affected almost every child in the world.”

    Proof positive that measles was/is not a serious disease and that vaccines are unnecessary. Before the vaccine, EVERYONE got the measles as children, and guess what? Humanity survived just fine. In fact, it seems all vaccines have accomplished is accelerating the overpopulation of Earth, which is a MUCH bigger problem that will end up killing BILLIONS of people, compared to the measles’ paltry 0.03 mortality rate.

    I see it happening now with chicken pox. Even as recently as the early 90s chicken pox was seen as a harmless childhood disease that almost everyone gets. People would even host “chicken pox” parties to go ahead and infect their kids and get it out of the way. But then a vaccine for it is developed, and guess what starts immediately happening? Everyone starts fearmongering that chicken pox is a dangerous disease, and if we dont vaccine our children against it, we’re all gonna die! Classic fear-based advertising, to sell a product.

    • Before the vaccine, EVERYONE got the measles as children, and guess what?

      About one in every thousand children died of it, more if nutrition and medical care weren’t up to the standards we in the west are used to.

      Humanity survived just fine.

      Because people had a lot more babies so they could afford to lose some.

      In fact, it seems all vaccines have accomplished is accelerating the overpopulation of Earth, which is a MUCH bigger problem that will end up killing BILLIONS of people, compared to the measles’ paltry 0.03 mortality rate.

      Overpopulation can be a problem on a local scale if population is growing faster than the government can handle and by reducing the need to have so many babies vaccines can help deal with that quite effectively but on a global scale overpopulation turns out to be a myth of neo-Luddites who refuse to use modern technology which can support >10 billion people with minimal environmental consequences.

      I see it happening now with chicken pox. Even as recently as the early 90s chicken pox was seen as a harmless childhood disease that almost everyone gets.

      and which quite a few people die from while those who survive end up quite miserable. Besides, if physicians and medical scientists considered chickenpox harmless why would they go to the trouble of developing a vaccine against it?

      People would even host “chicken pox” parties to go ahead and infect their kids and get it out of the way.

      A very reckless activity.

    • “Humanity survived just fine. In fact, it seems all vaccines have accomplished is accelerating the overpopulation of Earth, which is a MUCH bigger problem that will end up killing BILLIONS of people, compared to the measles’ paltry 0.03 mortality rate.”

      The places with the highest population growth are those with high child mortality rates, like Afghanistan. People tend to have smaller families when they are confident their children have a chance to actually grow up. You cannot have that confidence when diseases are allowed to circulate. Only a cold hearted idiot would advocate population control by increasing child mortality.

      You should get familiar with Hans Rosling, He explains it in this video. His other videos explain why educating women and preventing disease leads to smaller families.

  56. Wow, this article is fastidious, my sister is analyzing such things, thus I am
    going to inform her.

  57. I was not aware that people who put this much confidence in vaccines existed. I just want to point out that both authors here seem to be on thier vaccine high horse and both give misinformation.
    I also want to point out that just because we (the not vaccinated) have found what we believe to be proof that vaccines are toxic, kill, injure, and do not protect anyone from anything, does not mean it is false information. Vaccines do in fact do terrible things. Whether they work or not seems to be facts decided with money, so I personally have not been able to find proof that they work. This is not hocus pocus. We have real research by real scientists. You just havent looked in their direction because most people want to find truth in only what they believe, or what they’ve been trained to believe.

    That said, having based our decisions on real science, just as you have, we hear a lot of harassment. Much of which is highly incompetent. Most of us have found herd immunity probably doesnt exist. Children vaccinated against whooping cough are at a lower risk for certain strains but at an even greater risk for other strains. Vaccinated people, and nonvaccinated people, can both CARRY diseases without actually having contracted them, thus it is a myth that getting yourself vaccinated will protect your baby. No vaccine has ever been tested with a real placebo, EVER. No vaccine has ever been tested for true effectivness, EVER. both of these tests would result in both sides claiming its inhumane. ALL vaccines carry a risk of death and ALL vaccines have killed individuals. There is evidence to support that hygiene and sanitation not only prevents disease but eradicated it.

    PS Every state offers a medical exemption. 48 States offer religious. And philosophical exemptions are on the rise with more than half the US offering them.

    When I research, I look at who paid for the research, who is being paid to do the research and how the research was conducted. This eliminates a lot of confusion.

    All 3 of my kids are vaccine free and have far less health issues than those vaccinated. The doctors marvel about how theyve never been seriously ill, never had an ear infection or the flu, have no allergies and no developmental delays. And the few times that they have been sick (6 times in 6 years between the three of them) the doctors are amazed that their recovery time is withing 1 to 2 days. This is my personal experience, it just happens that nearly all nonvaccinated children have the same experience.

    • “I also want to point out that just because we (the not vaccinated) have found what we believe to be proof that vaccines are toxic, kill, injure, and do not protect anyone from anything, does not mean it is false information. Vaccines do in fact do terrible things.”

      Can you please enlighten us with that proof? As a parent of a child who required hospital treatment due to seizures from an actual disease before its vaccine was available I am particularly interested in which vaccines cause more seizures than the actual diseases. So please provide the PubMed indexed studies by qualified reputable researchers showing any vaccine causes more seizures than its vaccine.

      “Whether they work or not seems to be facts decided with money, so I personally have not been able to find proof that they work.”

      Also, about two years ago I asked a question, see my comment here. So just look at the census data on measles incidence in the USA during most of the 20th century and explain why that incidence dropped 90% between 1960 and 1970. And, please please do not mention deaths or mortality, they are not the same as “incidence” or “number of cases.”

      “When I research, I look at who paid for the research, who is being paid to do the research and how the research was conducted. This eliminates a lot of confusion”

      Well, you’ll be glad that I used data from the US Census Bureau. Though you could do me another favor. Please go through this list of studies from around the planet and using direct quotes from the studies explain their funding and how it affects the data: Vaccine Safety: Examine the Evidence.

      It would really help to clarify your statements, because without any actual data they are very confusing. Thank you.

    • Again, where are your citations? You claim you have proof, and have looked into how the research was funded, so where is that evidence?

    • Hello? Where are is your evidence? You claimed to have science.

    • Kristin, you claimed to have scientific evidence but have not given us any citations. Is it because you can’t because they do not exist, or you won’t because you know we will find them less than adequate?

      Just for your information here is a guide for you to read: How to evaluate the quality of scientific research.

      Also, please thank your responsible neighbors who vaccinate their families. They are protecting your children by bolstering your community’s immunity to many dangerous diseases.

    • And you still have nothing. Good to know.

    • Again, where is your actual science? More than two weeks later you still have absolutely nothing. Just sayin’.

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  60. only thing that bugs me on this topic is the term “anti vaccine” . Nobody is anti vaccine, all people who dont vaccinate have a story of a child or relative suffering life changing or life ending reactions to vaccines and from then on decide they wont participate no more. Its easy from far away to call these people stupid but only them have to deal with their realities. and i dont get why people assume that folks who dont vaccinate are ignorant to science when there are many doctors who are against vaccines as well, as these doctors stupid? just from the top of my head one doctor is Mayer Eisenstein who also has a law degree. other doctors are not against vaccines per se but are against the current one size fits all schedule which basically treats all kids as if theyre not individuals. i choose to vaccinate my kids but i will never shove this in peoples faces as if that makes me smarter, because it doesnt.

    In 1986 congress passed the National Childhood Vaccine Injury Act (NCVIA) in response to the numerous lawsuits vaccine manufacturers were facing from parents of vaccine injured children. some vaccine makers decided to stop making vaccines to not deal with the backlash no more, so the government wanted to fix this to convince them to keep making them. The “solution” is this, no longer are vaccine makers responsible for vaccine induced injury or death, and parents who want to sue are instead told to file a claim and present their case in “vaccine court”, this process can take 4-5 years, most cases are denied or parents dont even file to deal with the headaches. so the “solution” was to protect vaccine makers and doctors from any liability and send concerned parents to a courtroom. since this law was passed, the government has awarded $2 billion dollars to families of vaccine injured people. but no doubt should be way more.

    This act also established the Vaccine Adverse Event Reporting System (VAERS). anybody can report a vaccine injury or death. Doctors are required by law to report reactions but of course they dont, and in most cases they dont even tell parents this database exists, so a large chunk of data doesnt even get reported. Every year VAERS recieves more than 12,000 adverse reports. so when you hear “vaccine injury is rare” this statement is nonsense.

    like i said i choose to vaccinate, but thats all it should be, a CHOICE, which should be respected.

    Just one week prior to a congressional investigation into conflicts of interest within the vaccine industry, a top secret meeting of high level officials from the CDC, FDA, World Health Organization (WHO), and representatives from every major vaccine manifacturer, was held at the secluded Simpsonwood conference center in Norcross, Georgia. They had gathered to discuss an alarming new study that CONFIRMED A LINK BETWEEN THIMEROSAL (MERCURY) IN CHILDHOOD VACCINES AND NEUROLOGICAL DAMAGE, including recent dramatic increases in autistic spectrum disorders. However, instead of warning the public and recalling the dangerous vaccines, this small group of federal health officials and vaccine industry executives spent the weekend calculating how cover this up.

    When we are dealing with shadyness on this level we cannot be surprised if some people lose faith in this.

    So if something goes wrong, NOBODY is held responsible, not the vaccine maker or the doctor.. If vaccines are so safe why do they need this legal blanket protecting them. I make an INFORMED decision to vaccinate, but sadly i learnt none of this from my doctor, i had to educate myself. just to test a doctor once i asked “if something goes wrong, who is responsible?” he danced around the question and left the room, this is the key question to ask if you want to know who youre really dealing with when it comes to vaccines. The real answer is “if something goes wrong , nobody is reponsible but you, and you would have to go to a court to prove it”.

    • Nobody is anti vaccine,

      Well if they (and you) aren’t anti-vaccine they sure do a good job acting like they are.

      all people who dont vaccinate have a story of a child or relative suffering life changing or life ending reactions to vaccines and from then on decide they wont participate no more.

      Except that they actually don’t, they only think they do.

      and i dont get why people assume that folks who dont vaccinate are ignorant to science

      It’s because they are ignorant of science.

      when there are many doctors who are against vaccines as well, as these doctors stupid?

      Some people with medical training end up becoming quacks and ignoring science.

      other doctors are not against vaccines per se but are against the current one size fits all schedule which basically treats all kids as if theyre not individuals.

      It treats all kids as though they are entitled to the same standard of medical care and most kids are not different enough for a different schedule to be justified for every child.

      i choose to vaccinate my kids but i will never shove this in peoples faces as if that makes me smarter, because it doesnt.

      Assuming we can believe that (we’ve seen plenty of concern trolls from the anti-vaxers) then you are better than those who don’t vaccinate as you are not causing a public health menace.

      In 1986 congress passed the National Childhood Vaccine Injury Act (NCVIA) in response to the numerous lawsuits vaccine manufacturers were facing from parents of vaccine injured children.

      The evidence indicates that most likely there no parents of vaccine injured children suing, they were parents who thought a vaccine injured their child because whatever symptoms first appeared about the same time as the vaccine was administered (please remember that correlation does not imply causation).

      But even though the lawsuits were without scientific merit there was the very real risk that the pharmaceutical companies would leave the vaccine market (as vaccines just aren’t very profitable) which would result in a lot more people getting sick and dying (a socially undesirable outcome).

      The “solution” is this, no longer are vaccine makers responsible for vaccine induced injury or death, and parents who want to sue are instead told to file a claim and present their case in “vaccine court”, this process can take 4-5 years, most cases are denied or parents dont even file to deal with the headaches.

      The vaccine court actually requires a lower standard of evidence than the normal courts (things that would normally be inadmissible can be bought up) so it’s actually easier to win there (and as I understand it those who lose in vaccine court can appeal to a normal one).

      This act also established the Vaccine Adverse Event Reporting System (VAERS). anybody can report a vaccine injury or death. Doctors are required by law to report reactions but of course they dont, and in most cases they dont even tell parents this database exists, so a large chunk of data doesnt even get reported. Every year VAERS recieves more than 12,000 adverse reports. so when you hear “vaccine injury is rare” this statement is nonsense.

      Oh yes, just like the time the flu vaccine turned someone into the hulk.

      What you fail to understand is that the reports in that system are not reports of things vaccines caused as much as things that happened at about the same time as a vaccine was given, the vast majority of such cases would have happened had the vaccine not been given, they just wouldn’t have been reported to it.

      like i said i choose to vaccinate, but thats all it should be, a CHOICE, which should be respected.

      Yes, just like the choice to drive right after binge drinking should be respected.

      They had gathered to discuss an alarming new study that CONFIRMED A LINK BETWEEN THIMEROSAL (MERCURY) IN CHILDHOOD VACCINES AND NEUROLOGICAL DAMAGE,

      Which badly conducted study might that be?

      including recent dramatic increases in autistic spectrum disorders.

      Unfortunately there has been no such increase, there has been an increase in diagnoses but that’s due to more mild cases being detected (along with a few things that aren’t autistic spectrum put there because it’s required to get funding for education assistance).

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  62. I did not read thru all the comments so if this was addressed I apologize in advance.

    Regarding the first point, it is a fact that a vaccinated child is less likely to contract an illness they have been vaccinated for, however it does not minimize their chances of becoming a host for the disease and infecting other children whether vaccinated or not. Physical transmission will occur regardless of age or vaccination status, as well as being silent carriers.

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